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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:27 pm 
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DocWaluigean wrote:
Kasumi wrote:
Let's start with where you actually got stuck, since a few other answers you want might be a bit better understood after you get unstuck.
Quote:
Alright, I got lost on the "So click "reset". Recheck debugger if you need to." because it feels like it's starting to lose certain information.

"Reset" (next to "Run" and "Hexdump"), takes the CPU back to its initial "state". "Recheck debugger" means Check the checkbox next to the "Debugger" option. (Underneath the black box.) You have to check "Debugger" again after you click "Run". Which... is a bit annoying, but hey, it's still a good package.

So for that section starting from the total beginning (refresh the page), you want this code again (from the previous post, sorry, yes, that wasn't clear):
Code:
lda #$01
sta $08
lda #$02
sta $0200
lda #$01
sta $05FF

Remove any code already in the box. Paste the code above into the box. Click Assemble, check "Debugger", and check "Monitor". And then continue reading the post.
Quote:
-"A did indeed get the value $01 put into it's box" ???

I described earlier in the post that A (the accumulator) was like a box that holds one value. So this put the value $01 into that box. (That is, that A now hold the value $01.) Does this make sense now?

I'll answer your questions in a different order than you asked, because they sort of flow into each other. And it's okay to not understand these things too! So long as you get to the end of that other post, I promise you're getting somewhere.
Quote:
Is "something" an address code? Real Number?

This one's tough... I want to say maybe wait for the answer, but I'll try to get the basics.

The "something" is the "addressing mode". (Edit: Kasumi learned something new today! I guess it's really called the "operand", but addressing modes are still pretty important to learn so let's go!) And it's often an address or a real number. Most instructions have several "addressing modes". And usually the addressing mode affects which value is used, but not... the "goal" of the instruction? (Goal here is not a technical term.) For example, LDA always copies some value into the accumulator. That's its goal. The addressing mode affects how the value that gets copied is fetched.

For example #$XX (where XX is any one hexadecimal value between $00 and $FF) is called "immediate" addressing. (You don't really need to remember the names of the addressing modes.) A number symbol '#' before a value means immediate addressing. Immediate addressing means use that value given as it is. If you leave out the number symbol, it's a different addressing mode. (And you will definitely mess them up accidentally at least once in your code! It's a rite of passage. :lol: )

lda #$00 means A (the accumulator) will get the value $00.
lda #$FF means A will get the value $FF.

Immediate is the easiest addressing mode.

Two other addressing modes are used in the post.

$XX (where XX is any value between $00 and $FF) is "zero page" addressing. $0000-$00FF in RAM are called the zero page because their leftmost digits are, well, zero. Rather than use the value of "XX" directly, it uses the value stored in RAM at $00XX.

lda $00 means A will get the value stored at $0000.
lda $08 means A will get the value stored at $0008.

$XXXX is "absolute" addressing.

lda $0200 means A will get the value stored at $0200. It's worth noting there's no guarantee an "absolute" address is RAM. What's RAM and what influences hardware is one of the things that can change between things that use 6502.

If you don't understand addressing modes, please, please don't get hung up on it. They're... eventually necessarily knowledge, but they become easier to understand once you start coding a bit.
Quote:
I know that instructions is opcode ; operation code?

Opcode is operation code, yes. Each mnemonic can have several "opcodes". And the reason for this is because of the addressing modes. LDA #$00 has a different "opcode" than LDA $00. (The different opcode is how the CPU fetches the right value to put in the accumulator.)

Shorter, the opcode is the byte that tells the CPU exactly what to do.

What the CPU does, is read a byte (the opcode), do the action associated with that byte (run the instruction, which may involve reading a few more bytes). When that instruction is done, it will read another byte, and do the action associated with that byte. Basically forever.

Again, if that doesn't make much sense, don't worry too much. You can actually get away with never learning much about opcodes.
Quote:
-I thought you can't change the RAM styles? or was it that you can't save it?

I don't understand what you mean by RAM styles. Can you rephrase the question?


2nd
----------------------

For example #$XX (where XX is any one hexadecimal value between $00 and $FF) is called "immediate" addressing. (You don't really need to remember the names of the addressing modes.) A number symbol '#' before a value means immediate addressing. Immediate addressing means use that value given as it is. If you leave out the number symbol, it's a different addressing mode. (And you will definitely mess them up accidentally at least once in your code! It's a rite of passage. :lol: )

So $XX[XX] means "While your at the Address XXXX.."

And #$XX[XX] means "Use the code found at Address XXXX..." ?

I nearly forgot what # does, but I feel it's "...Number..." But what's its used for?

Again, if that doesn't make much sense, don't worry too much. You can actually get away with never learning much about opcodes.

It's kind of hard to agree with, because when I tried Debugger on Mesen on NES rom games made by Shiru, I feel much demotivated because all I see is mathematical performances on few used $0000 something. Like how am I going to make programming incredibly fun to learn?

I don't understand what you mean by RAM styles. Can you rephrase the question?

There as a question by one of teachers[?] here who said you can never change the code inside the NES, but only change the code in Assembly?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:30 pm 
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unregistered wrote:
DocWaluigean, I know that this post of mine didn't make much sense to you when you read it; but, I want you to know that rereading lots of my thread was extremely helpful to me and most of the posts that I didn't fully understand made tons more sense to me after I got more comfortable with 6502. :) My post I linked describes, to the best of my ability, the most crucial assembly information I learned in college; I hope you'll revisit it after you get more comfortable with 6502. :) Knowing that has made me more comfortable with 6502 because I know what's really happening at the 6502 "foundation".

p.s. Here is booker's excellent post office RAM/ROM explanation to me. Kasumi's post office picture reminded me of booker's post. :)

edit: fixed spelling of "extreemly" and added an "s" to the http in my second link. Sorry. :oops:


Thanks? (I want to say it's a compliment. ^^; But I don't know if I did anything helpful..)

And thanks for the link about it.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:31 pm 
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Oziphantom wrote:
Sorry I've not really been tracking this topic..

How to learn programming with funny comics, and easy to read follow along. This does exist, just it was all done before your time...
https://usborne.com/browse-books/featur ... ing-books/ scroll past the modern crap python stuff and you will get down to the free pfds. SO Programming Tricks and Skills, Machine Code programming for beginners, Basic for beginners, Computer battlegames etc Are great for learning. I read them when I was 6 and first got my Commodore 64. They have diagrams with robot and make puns etc.

From there http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/books.htm
Machine Language
on the Commodore 64, 128 and other Commodore Computers Revised and Expanded Edition by Jim Butterfield is the book to learn from, Jim was a celebrity back in the late 70s and was "the expert" on 6502 and Commodore computers. The Compute's guide too books are also very nice introductions.
The Abacus books are a bit higher level, more of a professional of the era teaching guide.
Commodore 64 Assembly Language by Bruce Smith is in the middle. But if you have a book and the style or language doesn't work for you, just pick another one.

Or hit up Archive.org and read the old Compute magazines, or Your Commodore etc from back when the Commodore, Atari and Apple computers where the hottest thing on the market.


THAT'S EXACTLY what I'm talking about, and what I want to accomplished on making 6502 that focuses primary on NES! Thank you so much for the link!

Btw, it doesn't mean I'm leaving like that. It's stupid; there's about infinite things to learn. I'd never wanna leave th0ugh.

But however, there isn't a type of enjoyments for 6502 NES styles the way that can make us in competition between Japanese programmers and future other programmers. [So sorry if it sounds racist. I'm just jealous or appreciative how good they code with Famicom homebrews, yet I can't find the NESDev equivalent of Japan.]


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:24 pm 
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Quote:
So $XX[XX] means "While your at the Address XXXX.."

$0000 through $FFFF means address. Not while you're at an address. Just an address.
$00 through $FF also means address. $00 means $0000. $FF means $00FF. $56 means $0056.

All of this specifically applies to code you plan to assemble. In the easy6502 debugger (and most debuggers), it says A=$00. But $00 in that context is not an address, it's just a value. Perhaps that's confusing, but it is how it is.
Quote:
And #$XX[XX] means "Use the code found at Address XXXX..." ?

No, this usually denotes a number. You can also only use two (hexadecimal) digits. #$00 through #$FF are valid. #$0100 through #$FFFF are not.
Quote:
It's kind of hard to agree with, because when I tried Debugger on Mesen on NES rom games made by Shiru,

Running a debugger on a game someone else made is different than running the debugger on a game you made. Either way, you don't really need to know about opcodes because the debugger also displays the instructions as they'd appear in source code. It helps to know which names you've given to things correspond to which address (and some debuggers can import source code so you don't even need to know this), but that's not really opcodes. Knowing opcodes is way more helpful for game hacking, which you can also get away with never learning much about.

The thing about making a 6502 guide that's focused on NES is that 6502 is easy and NES is hard. Teaching both together is like trying to teach you to juggle and solve a rubik's cube at the same time. I'd rather just help you through the rubik's cube for now. We can get to juggling later. I'm even working on what I guess will be considered an NES focused guide, but NES won't be talked about until the user is already running 6502 code.

Keep working through that post: viewtopic.php?p=224023#p224023

Edit: Missed one:
Quote:
There as a question by one of teachers[?] here who said you can never change the code inside the NES, but only change the code in Assembly?

You can't change ROM. "Read Only Memory" because it's read-only. Writes aren't allowed. That's the only rule. Which addresses are RAM (can be changed) and which are ROM also vary between things that use the CPU. $00 through $FF are a pretty safe bet to be RAM across the board, though. (NES included.)

_________________
https://kasumi.itch.io/indivisible


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:11 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:03 am
Posts: 617
DocWaluigean wrote:
Oziphantom wrote:
Sorry I've not really been tracking this topic..

How to learn programming with funny comics, and easy to read follow along. This does exist, just it was all done before your time...
https://usborne.com/browse-books/featur ... ing-books/ scroll past the modern crap python stuff and you will get down to the free pfds. SO Programming Tricks and Skills, Machine Code programming for beginners, Basic for beginners, Computer battlegames etc Are great for learning. I read them when I was 6 and first got my Commodore 64. They have diagrams with robot and make puns etc.

From there http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/books.htm
Machine Language
on the Commodore 64, 128 and other Commodore Computers Revised and Expanded Edition by Jim Butterfield is the book to learn from, Jim was a celebrity back in the late 70s and was "the expert" on 6502 and Commodore computers. The Compute's guide too books are also very nice introductions.
The Abacus books are a bit higher level, more of a professional of the era teaching guide.
Commodore 64 Assembly Language by Bruce Smith is in the middle. But if you have a book and the style or language doesn't work for you, just pick another one.

Or hit up Archive.org and read the old Compute magazines, or Your Commodore etc from back when the Commodore, Atari and Apple computers where the hottest thing on the market.


THAT'S EXACTLY what I'm talking about, and what I want to accomplished on making 6502 that focuses primary on NES! Thank you so much for the link!

Btw, it doesn't mean I'm leaving like that. It's stupid; there's about infinite things to learn. I'd never wanna leave th0ugh.

But however, there isn't a type of enjoyments for 6502 NES styles the way that can make us in competition between Japanese programmers and future other programmers. [So sorry if it sounds racist. I'm just jealous or appreciative how good they code with Famicom homebrews, yet I can't find the NESDev equivalent of Japan.]

Well 6502 is 6502 and the 6502 books are mostly generic. However the NES is a hard lump of metal, with zero help and it takes a lot to get anything going. You would be MUCH better off coming over to lemon64.com and doing some C64 stuff. As the C64 has a keyboard, and BASIC and disk drives, a character set, KERNAL and tonnes and tonnes of resources, editors, code snippets, book galore, the Programmers Reference Guide, and other very indepth docs.
Once you know how chars and sprites work, you can come back to the NES and learn how to do it without all the nice stuff, and without all the fancy features and well put up with the NES being a bit lame ;) When you learn to ski you don't start on the hard course ;)
The NES and C64 are very similar in the methods you use to do things. Tiles, Sprites, Joysticks etc But at first you want to work on doing 5 + 7 and getting the result, to which being able to poke a memory location and then peek it in basic to get the actual number printed for you makes life a lot easier. Also we have better debugging tools ;) Or basically get it 'doing the thing' in the C64 emulator, then take what you have learnt and get it working in the NES emulator ;)

What Homebrews are Japanese?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:10 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:41 pm
Posts: 150
Oziphantom wrote:
DocWaluigean wrote:
Oziphantom wrote:
Sorry I've not really been tracking this topic..

How to learn programming with funny comics, and easy to read follow along. This does exist, just it was all done before your time...
https://usborne.com/browse-books/featur ... ing-books/ scroll past the modern crap python stuff and you will get down to the free pfds. SO Programming Tricks and Skills, Machine Code programming for beginners, Basic for beginners, Computer battlegames etc Are great for learning. I read them when I was 6 and first got my Commodore 64. They have diagrams with robot and make puns etc.

From there http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/books.htm
Machine Language
on the Commodore 64, 128 and other Commodore Computers Revised and Expanded Edition by Jim Butterfield is the book to learn from, Jim was a celebrity back in the late 70s and was "the expert" on 6502 and Commodore computers. The Compute's guide too books are also very nice introductions.
The Abacus books are a bit higher level, more of a professional of the era teaching guide.
Commodore 64 Assembly Language by Bruce Smith is in the middle. But if you have a book and the style or language doesn't work for you, just pick another one.

Or hit up Archive.org and read the old Compute magazines, or Your Commodore etc from back when the Commodore, Atari and Apple computers where the hottest thing on the market.


THAT'S EXACTLY what I'm talking about, and what I want to accomplished on making 6502 that focuses primary on NES! Thank you so much for the link!

Btw, it doesn't mean I'm leaving like that. It's stupid; there's about infinite things to learn. I'd never wanna leave th0ugh.

But however, there isn't a type of enjoyments for 6502 NES styles the way that can make us in competition between Japanese programmers and future other programmers. [So sorry if it sounds racist. I'm just jealous or appreciative how good they code with Famicom homebrews, yet I can't find the NESDev equivalent of Japan.]

Well 6502 is 6502 and the 6502 books are mostly generic. However the NES is a hard lump of metal, with zero help and it takes a lot to get anything going. You would be MUCH better off coming over to lemon64.com and doing some C64 stuff. As the C64 has a keyboard, and BASIC and disk drives, a character set, KERNAL and tonnes and tonnes of resources, editors, code snippets, book galore, the Programmers Reference Guide, and other very indepth docs.
Once you know how chars and sprites work, you can come back to the NES and learn how to do it without all the nice stuff, and without all the fancy features and well put up with the NES being a bit lame ;) When you learn to ski you don't start on the hard course ;)
The NES and C64 are very similar in the methods you use to do things. Tiles, Sprites, Joysticks etc But at first you want to work on doing 5 + 7 and getting the result, to which being able to poke a memory location and then peek it in basic to get the actual number printed for you makes life a lot easier. Also we have better debugging tools ;) Or basically get it 'doing the thing' in the C64 emulator, then take what you have learnt and get it working in the NES emulator ;)

What Homebrews are Japanese?


Hard lump of metal? I might going to need Mercury for it!...and helps...

I never played C64 sadly. But the NES has a type of love that's not even scratched the surface yet. There isn't a game that fully fully use the NES color palettes like the palette demo showing all colors at once yet, or at least one step progresses for it, and I have yet to see home-brew games that utilize Namco106 yet!

The term NES being lame just made me more determined to make learning NES codings fun. :beer:

Sounds amazing, but I'm sadly not interested yet.. I wonder if there's NESDev C64.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMB5FK2YMVA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi4MM1E5f7E
https://youtu.be/FuQc1xpx78c

the top are self made, the bottom two are examples of extreme code edit.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:28 am 
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Don't go chasing demos, what a machine can do when you throw the whole CPU at making it do neat stuff with special case tricks and what you can do generically in a game are two very different things.
Demos can look like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzQVECn3tY8
But games can only look like this https://youtu.be/ldo2ewLBt3Y?t=512

My point is not to love the C64, but to take you baby steps on it, then tackle the steep climb of the NES, but if you prefer the sharpen you beak on a mountain of diamond, what ever works for you ;)

By NesDev C64 you mean a place where C64 devs hang out and discuss programing and development?
http://www.lemon64.com
http://www.forum64.de
https://csdb.dk/
http://www.melon64.com
http://www.com64.net/foorumi/
http://www.c64persian.tk/

Also FB groups and IRC groups, I think there is even a Discord..

Also the Japanese NesDEV is here viewforum.php?f=11 ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:12 pm 
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Kasumi wrote:
Quote:
So $XX[XX] means "While your at the Address XXXX.."

$0000 through $FFFF means address. Not while you're at an address. Just an address.
$00 through $FF also means address. $00 means $0000. $FF means $00FF. $56 means $0056.

All of this specifically applies to code you plan to assemble. In the easy6502 debugger (and most debuggers), it says A=$00. But $00 in that context is not an address, it's just a value. Perhaps that's confusing, but it is how it is.
Quote:
And #$XX[XX] means "Use the code found at Address XXXX..." ?

No, this usually denotes a number. You can also only use two (hexadecimal) digits. #$00 through #$FF are valid. #$0100 through #$FFFF are not.
Quote:
It's kind of hard to agree with, because when I tried Debugger on Mesen on NES rom games made by Shiru,

Running a debugger on a game someone else made is different than running the debugger on a game you made. Either way, you don't really need to know about opcodes because the debugger also displays the instructions as they'd appear in source code. It helps to know which names you've given to things correspond to which address (and some debuggers can import source code so you don't even need to know this), but that's not really opcodes. Knowing opcodes is way more helpful for game hacking, which you can also get away with never learning much about.

The thing about making a 6502 guide that's focused on NES is that 6502 is easy and NES is hard. Teaching both together is like trying to teach you to juggle and solve a rubik's cube at the same time. I'd rather just help you through the rubik's cube for now. We can get to juggling later. I'm even working on what I guess will be considered an NES focused guide, but NES won't be talked about until the user is already running 6502 code.

Keep working through that post: https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php ... 23#p224023

Edit: Missed one:
Quote:
There as a question by one of teachers[?] here who said you can never change the code inside the NES, but only change the code in Assembly?

You can't change ROM. "Read Only Memory" because it's read-only. Writes aren't allowed. That's the only rule. Which addresses are RAM (can be changed) and which are ROM also vary between things that use the CPU. $00 through $FF are a pretty safe bet to be RAM across the board, though. (NES included.)


I see.. Going to start over just so we can get progressions not just for me, not just for you, but for everyone.

Did the first part with red and white dots.

Now new:---

The A=$01 turns into A=$02 before revert to $01.

STA as in put new numbers / variables into the A register. It will hold on forever unless told to place it somewhere or get replaced with LDA, new number of STA, or the system turns off.

So what's the meaning with LDA/LDX/LDY when its between, "Load this data with new number, like 'Load it in with new numbers of your choice!'" and "Load the date FR0M $#????" ?

After last steps, theres 2 white pixels, and doing another step, the colors switched around!

I understands the fact that in THIS CPU of Easy6502, there's a made-up Address information where #$00XX is the Address code where it's "show one pixel with any color depending on your code choosing."

But what about if I only put "$XXXX" or "#XXXX" or "#$XXXX" ??? What's major differences and examples of using it? [I almost didn't want to ask because I want to progress..]


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Oziphantom wrote:
Don't go chasing demos, what a machine can do when you throw the whole CPU at making it do neat stuff with special case tricks and what you can do generically in a game are two very different things.
Demos can look like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzQVECn3tY8
But games can only look like this https://youtu.be/ldo2ewLBt3Y?t=512

My point is not to love the C64, but to take you baby steps on it, then tackle the steep climb of the NES, but if you prefer the sharpen you beak on a mountain of diamond, what ever works for you ;)

By NesDev C64 you mean a place where C64 devs hang out and discuss programing and development?
http://www.lemon64.com
http://www.forum64.de
https://csdb.dk/
http://www.melon64.com
http://www.com64.net/foorumi/
http://www.c64persian.tk/

Also FB groups and IRC groups, I think there is even a Discord..

Also the Japanese NesDEV is here http://forums.nesdev.com/viewforum.php?f=11 ;)


That's sadly true. BUUUT there is hope to make the demo with insane abilities to be able to turn into a full game if knowledge of 6502 is so great! Apple Macintosh is made with 6502, so with effort of love into programming in NES that Nintendo never thought, things can get beautiful!

It's possible to break mountains of diamonds. You just need to be smart and understand the geometries and inside Diamond's anatomy of weakness.

And alright, I'll check it out thanks!

But I am not sure if it really is the only NES/FC-focused places that makes homebrews for FC/NES [Mostly FC. I'm fine the fact I could use classic edition haha!]


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:48 pm 
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The Lisa and original Macintosh used a Motorola 68000 CPU, as did the Macintosh 512K, Macintosh Plus, Macintosh SE, Macintosh Portable, Macintosh Classic, and Macintosh PowerBook 100. The closest things to a 6502 in a Mac were the 65816 as the main CPU of the Apple IIGS and the 65C02 on the Apple IIe card for Macintosh LC.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:14 pm 
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tepples wrote:
The Lisa and original Macintosh used a Motorola 68000 CPU, as did the Macintosh 512K, Macintosh Plus, Macintosh SE, Macintosh Portable, Macintosh Classic, and Macintosh PowerBook 100. The closest things to a 6502 in a Mac were the 65816 as the main CPU of the Apple IIGS and the 65C02 on the Apple IIe card for Macintosh LC.


oooooooh. VVhat does SNES CPU use? 65402? or 65302?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:30 pm 
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The Super NES's 5A22 CPU contains a 65816 core licensed from WDC and a custom memory controller.

The Sega Genesis, Neo Geo, and Capcom CPS have a 68000, like the Macintosh. CD-i has a "68070", which is a 68000 core licensed from Motorola with a less efficient address generator plus a custom memory controller. The Atari Jaguar uses a 68000 as an I/O processor alongside two glitchy 32-bit RISC CPUs.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:47 pm 
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tepples wrote:
The Super NES's 5A22 CPU contains a 65816 core licensed from WDC and a custom memory controller.

The Sega Genesis, Neo Geo, and Capcom CPS have a 68000, like the Macintosh. CD-i has a "68070", which is a 68000 core licensed from Motorola with a less efficient address generator plus a custom memory controller. The Atari Jaguar uses a 68000 as an I/O processor alongside two glitchy 32-bit RISC CPUs.


So that means 6502 code languages that I'm learning right now doesn't apply to 65816?....


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:48 pm 
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@Kazumi

I'm finish with the Easy6502 test now from above the comments. Ready when you are. ^^;


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:21 pm 
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DocWaluigean wrote:
But what about if I only put "$XXXX" or "#XXXX" or "#$XXXX" ??? What's major differences and examples of using it? [I almost didn't want to ask because I want to progress..]


lda $XXXX <- a now has what is stored in the memory location at XXXX
lda #XXXX <- this is not possible, its an 8bit machine
lda #$XXXX <- also not possible
LDA #XXX <- this loads the A with XXX where XXX is decimal (0-255)
LDA #$XX <- this load The A with XX where XX is in hexadecimal (0-FF)


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