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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:14 pm 
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So I finally finished with collisions and character movements and can start working on maps and implement other staff. I got the free nesrpg placeholder tileset from the link on wiki, and I am not sure how I can use properly.

The proposed tileset has too many duplicates, so I used nesst to remove them. But now it is complete mess. My brain does not understand what is going on here, as all the tiles just randomly placed without any reference. And not of the tools (yy-chr, nesst) allow painlessly move tiles around and push old tiles into the new places, so I can reorder them into more convenient manner. The only thing I can think of is to draw the map from the full tileset or even set of images, and then generate compressed with the script (to replace tile numbers). But this will require writing another custom tool and also keep space for interface and alphabet tiles as well.

It is not a huge problem, but I want to ask what other people do to deal with the issues like that, so I don't spent time reinventing the wheel if there is already a working tool or approach.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:25 pm 
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It sounds like you probably want a program for editing maps, rather than a tool for managing CHR?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:34 pm 
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lidnariq wrote:
It sounds like you probably want a program for editing maps, rather than a tool for managing CHR?


As far as I know none really exists for NES.

I would like to get away with nesst for now. But what "remove duplicates" of nesst produces cannot be used by me. I suppose people who do that for a long time, can read it, for me it is just mess of pixels.

As of now I am more looking for a way to take tile from the end, move it somewhere in the middile of tileset and make others move one tile to the right. So I don't need to manually:
1. select first tile in the middle, move it to the end
2. copy second tile, insert it into the place of first tile
3. cut first tile, and place it into the second tile place.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:25 pm 
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For this, you might want to bring out the GIMP. This work flow might work for you:

1. Convert the .chr to .png
2. Open the .png in a paint program and set the grid to 8 pixels on a side
3. Make the changes
4. Convert the .png back to .chr


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:30 pm 
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There is maped pro. It sometimes crashes here and I need to edit the project file to fix, but after you set it up it works wonders.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:27 pm 
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I should have finished that map editor but I don't understand much the code anymore and my needs changed since. In it's current state, it's not very usable for other than my own project.

Oh well. ^^;;; I'm not sure what I should migrate for someday if I don't remake a simple one. Nesst is not really a map editor though.

edit:

What I means it any map editor we could mention should help Yaros but I don't even know myself these days which one are used for nes projects. I should search more about it too.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:34 pm 
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As I said, maped pro is really great. viewtopic.php?t=7111

And soon, there will be Nes Assets Workshop ^^

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:25 am 
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I always work with 2 (or more) CHR files for a given set, one which is in an non-optimized, "usable" form and the other which is used in-game, which is tightly optimized so that each duplicate is gone. Sometimes even a third one where I have a small level "example" of how metatiles are used and arranged together to form a level.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:05 am 
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With NESST, you can highlight duplicates and remove them manually without scrambling their order.

I avoid conversion to nonindexed formats (ie bmp, png) and back as much as possible since it's not worth the trouble converting it back. kasumi's i-chr is good for bitmap to indexed conversion, but you still need to manually define the palettes. There no way around that, it's either this or you're using a programs' best guess which sometimes/often will fail and cause you to do even more manual editing.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:46 pm 
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FrankenGraphics wrote:
I avoid conversion to nonindexed formats (ie bmp, png) and back as much as possible since it's not worth the trouble converting it back.


Hehe, I'm the opposite. I keep everything in 4-color indexed png format as much as possible (which is easier to work with in other tools and general graphics libraries), then either convert to chr at compile time, or on-the-fly if I need to use screen tool features for some reason.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:59 pm 
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Thanks everyone! I'll try mapped pro, and if not, just edit the bmp/png.

nesrocks, I've already noticed this tool. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

nesrocks wrote:
And soon, there will be Nes Assets Workshop ^^


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:09 pm 
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Much like nesrocks, I'm working on releasing a program to do this sort of thing, but they're making much quicker progress than I am.

My process for Indivisible was draw maps in PyxelEdit. Then I wrote a program to help with the rest.

Here's a rather large image: https://i.imgur.com/gnQ1uhe.png
I import the map PNG and it automatically guesses a valid palette, creates 8x8 tiles, and 16x16 tiles. The collision info of the 16x16 tiles can be edited. Then it exports a file for each byte of the 16x16 tile data (a byte for each corner, a byte for collision info, for five arrays of bytes) to be included in the ROM's source code. It also exports a PNG image of a 16x16 tileset, and a file that can be imported into Tiled.

To use the same tileset for multiple maps, the maps would be drawn in Tiled with the 16x16 tileset as the base tiles. If the tileset was only going to be used once (like the above example), all tile creation work is done automatically except for tagging things as solid or not.

Basically, I never worked directly with 8x8 tile indices, both the larger tile data and tiles themselves were created automatically from a PNG image. The map data was also created automatically, but the maps themselves were obviously not.

FrankenGraphics: What's an example of a failure case? It can choose a palette order that creates more than 256 tiles, when one exists that makes less, and it can choose something that does not let you animate palettes as intended. Do you mean something other than those?

For the first part (more than 256 tiles), yeah it should probably brute for the lowest number of tiles. For the second part, there's not much I can do automatically. It also doesn't like partial transparency, but that's "fixed" in the version I'll never end up releasing. I'll probably fix the tile thing in the release after the release I'll never end up releasing. Edit: Or I guess you could mean you want a different index than what it guesses, but that can be fixed by locking yourself to a palette and making sure the program uses that same palette. (Edit Assets/nespal.png to the NES palette you prefer. NES Screen Tool's or whatever you like.) Then it will never guess wrong unless you use colors outside the palette.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:29 pm 
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Kasumi wrote:
To use the same tileset for multiple maps, the maps would be drawn in Tiled with the 16x16 tileset as the base tiles. If the tileset was only going to be used once (like the above example), all tile creation work is done automatically except for tagging things as solid or not.

Basically, I never worked directly with 8x8 tile indices, both the larger tile data and tiles themselves were created automatically from a PNG image. The map data was also created automatically, but the maps themselves were obviously not.


Yeah, I was looking at Tiled, but haven't read documentation yet. Can I create 16x16 metatiles out of 8x8 ones? I don't want to have too many duplicates in the CHR, even though memory is cheap now. Plus, who knows, maybe I can have something for the competition this year (my internal deadline to keep working).


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:06 pm 
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I don't believe you can make tiles of tiles in Tiled. Even if you could, palettes would get in the way. (The same tile could be four different colors, which got in the way of Pyxel Edit's count, and gets in the way of most modern software.) That's why I wrote that tool to handle the parts in between. Image->16x16 tileset PNG for tiled, and duplicate/unused tiles removed.

I just took a look at MapEd Pro and it does indeed look like it does handle a lot of this, albeit with a learning curve.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:42 pm 
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I personally work with 16x16 pixel metatiles in all-purpose map editors such as Mappy or TilEd. I work with png's which are automaticly converted to chr by my (custom) toolchain. I have pretty good control over the process. The basic metatileset converter calculates the correct palettes and find duplicates and maps them correctly. I've used this with several CHR-ROM and CHR-RAM mappers with success.

The main converter is somewhat documented here, in case you find it interesting: https://github.com/mojontwins/MK1_NES/b ... cs/mkts.md (the docs are AGNES-oriented, but the converter is pretty much what I use in every NES game I've made since 2015).

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