It is currently Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:01 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:17 pm
Posts: 30
Alright, I didn't want to go into the garage but I guess I have no choice but to get my device out, I can't guarantee that my statements will be accurate.

EDIT:
I've got my multimeter out and I've made colored lines over what traces made beeps when I put them together. Again I can't guarantee what I've done here is accurate.


Attachments:
PCB trace colored copy.jpg
PCB trace colored copy.jpg [ 902.67 KiB | Viewed 211 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:28 pm
Posts: 4151
Location: A world gone mad
lidnariq was stating that what needs to be traced out via multimetre continuity tests are on the *front* of the board, especially the traces that go under ICs (i.e. stuff we cannot see from photos). The back of the board tends to be pretty basic/simple on most cart PCBs (but both sides are important given how often through-holes are present). What goes where from the cart/edge connectors is really what's most important for starters, since a lot is pass through via the NES to the edge connector.

So, if you can do something similar for the front of the PCB, esp. tracing where the edge connector pins go trace-wise -- exactly like you see depicted here (but using different colours helps!) -- then that would be super awesome.

Otherwise, I can try to track down/summon bunnyboy and see if he can just provide a schematic or what not since he probably has it for that board. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:17 pm
Posts: 30
koitsu wrote:
lidnariq was stating that what needs to be traced out via multimetre continuity tests are on the *front* of the board, especially the traces that go under ICs (i.e. stuff we cannot see from photos). The back of the board tends to be pretty basic/simple on most cart PCBs (but both sides are important given how often through-holes are present). What goes where from the cart/edge connectors is really what's most important for starters, since a lot is pass through via the NES to the edge connector.

So, if you can do something similar for the front of the PCB, esp. tracing where the edge connector pins go trace-wise -- exactly like you see depicted here (but using different colours helps!) -- then that would be super awesome.

Otherwise, I can try to track down/summon bunnyboy and see if he can just provide a schematic or what not since he probably has it for that board. :)


I think getting "bunnyboy" is probably the best solution, I don't really understand any of these instructions so this may be the trump card at this point.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:28 pm
Posts: 4151
Location: A world gone mad
The instructions are pretty simple: you use your multimetre's continuity test to figure out what the cartridge edge connectors (pins) connect to on the front and back of the PCB, by following the traces from the pins to wherever they end up. Some should be pretty obvious cuz you can see the traces from start to finish, like you did with part of the back of the PCB (those look fine!). But now do the same for the front of the PCB, for all the cart connector pins on that side.

The ones that are particularly important to us are the traces that go underneath an IC (like PRG or CHR) -- we can't tell where they go visually, and you probably can't either, but your MM continuity test can. You just put one probe on one of the pins that has a trace that goes under the IC, then "poke around" where you think the trace might go (it's usually nearby where it disappears); for example, it might go to one of the pins on the PRG chip, or the CHR chip, or even the 74377. In some cases, the pin may even go to multiple places. Do each pin at a time, and draw it out like you did with the back of the PCB (in a unique colour). Some pins may not go anywhere (i.e. probably go to an entire grounding plane), so they may end up appearing connected to other pins, some pins on ICs, etc. (that's normal for a grounding plane).

You cannot hurt the PCB/game doing any of this since the cart isn't in the NES when you're doing it (read: no voltage flowing across the board), if that's what you're worried about. Just don't scratch the PCB/traces is all.

If this is still too much for you, then I'm not sure what to really tell you. You're in possession of something that you wish to dump, but nobody seems to have a dump of it**, so you have to do the work to get to the point where others can help you make a Kazzo script so it *can* be dumped. My money is on mapper 11, but we don't know for sure. Anyway, your options are, as I see it:

1) Do what's described here,
2) Send the cartridge to someone else who can do it -- either the trace work, or the dumping, or both (I dumped Twin Eagle back in the late 90s) -- who is trustworthy/won't screw you over/give you the ROM/will send the cart back to you,
3) Hope someone else has already done it and comes forth with information,
4) Try to reach out to bunnyboy/Brian and see if he can provide PCB schematic/details, since he's likely the inventor.
5) Give up on trying to dump it.

bunnyboy is very busy (family + full-time job), so there's zero guarantee as to when he'd respond (ex. it's been several years since I talked when he invited me up to his place to visit). If potentially waiting forever is OK with you, then that's fine too. It's all up to you. There's no wrong choice, IMO!

No insult intended, but I'm really not sure what you were expecting. You didn't think dumping undumped NES carts would be some "magic automated process" where you just bought a dumper, shoved a cart in, ran a program, and clicked a button, did you? If this was an official Nintendo PCB and official game, it'd be a lot easier (esp. if there was already a Kazzo script for that particular PCB), but it's third-party and doesn't appear to have been dumped before**.

For (1), if you want someone to make you a short video on YouTube demonstrating how to do it, I could probably put together something quick this weekend demonstrating it with an actual cartridge (I have an MMC3/Legacy of the Wizard cart around here somewhere...). It's really not that hard, and doesn't take *too* long using a combination of a good PCB photo + a graphics editor.

If the reverse engineering was more complicated, such as something more than continuity tests (voltage, resistance, and anything requiring the cart be actively powered while being RE'd), I would just have someone else do it. I'm a smart guy, but not particularly smart in those ways.

** -- I suspect someone does have a dump of it, just that it hasn't been released probably out of concern for piracy. The PRG and CHR are EPROMs, not mask ROMs, which means someone bought a RetroUSB board and programmed the ROMs from file(s). I can't believe any Action 52-esque game is worth $300 though. Crazy.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:17 pm
Posts: 30
So what the instructions are is that, I put one needle on a single pin of the 377 chip, and then I try poking all the points on the rom chips to see if it'll make a sound indication there's connection? I'm totally lost here.

EDIT
This took many hours, a lot of sweat and a lot of back pain but I've tested all the connections, and did the "connect the dots" thing with the multimeter, here is the result.


Attachments:
unknown.png
unknown.png [ 768.6 KiB | Viewed 148 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 8476
Location: Seattle
ShadowMan44 wrote:
So what the instructions are is that, I put one needle on a single pin of the 377 chip, and then I try poking all the points on the rom chips to see if it'll make a sound indication there's connection?
Yes, exactly that.

I expect each one pin on the 74'377 will be connected to exactly one pin on the ROMs.


Last edited by lidnariq on Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:17 pm
Posts: 30
lidnariq wrote:
ShadowMan44 wrote:
So what the instructions are is that, I put one needle on a single pin of the 377 chip, and then I try poking all the points on the rom chips to see if it'll make a sound indication there's connection?
Yes, exactly that.

I expect each one pin on the 74'377 will be connected to exactly one pin on the ROMs.


The diagram I made shows that not all the pins connect to the rom chips, as some of them didn't show any sign of connectivity


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 8476
Location: Seattle
You only found the easy pins - "D0" through "D7" (grey, magenta, cyan, lighter blue, xx, blue, gold, peach). While the connection from "Q4" (red) to CHR A13 does imply this is Color Dreams = mapper 11, I admit I was hoping for a little more. At the very least, CHR A14 (the pin between red and green on the left IC) and PRG A15 (the top left corner of the right IC) should be there too...

But you could try this:
https://github.com/arantius/anago-scrip ... pper_11.ad

... oh, I bet "CD" means "Color Dreams"...


Last edited by lidnariq on Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:28 pm
Posts: 4151
Location: A world gone mad
lidnariq wrote:
... oh, I bet "CD" means "Color Dreams"...

Oh god, I didn't even think of that. You're probably 100% right here. So yeah, it's probably mapper 11 or some subset of it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:17 pm
Posts: 30
Aaaaand it has the same issue that it's been having


Attachments:
Cheetahtest_001.png
Cheetahtest_001.png [ 705 Bytes | Viewed 133 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 8476
Location: Seattle
How big is the resulting file?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:17 pm
Posts: 30
lidnariq wrote:
How big is the resulting file?

I get 40KB, when you said it should be 96KB correct?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 8476
Location: Seattle
Did you download the file I linked to? Configure Anago or Unagi (whichever you're using) to use it?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:17 pm
Posts: 30
lidnariq wrote:
Did you download the file I linked to? Configure Anago or Unagi (whichever you're using) to use it?

I saved the github script in txt, and renamed the file to an AD file, then loaded it into anago wx
Exactly as I've been doing all this time.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 8476
Location: Seattle
Does the Unagi output window say anything about "mirroring Program ROM fixed" or "mirroring Charcter ROM fixed" ?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group