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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:38 am 
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TOUKO wrote:
it's a true hi-res mode,it's not like the snes one.

What's this supposed to mean? The BG modes are true high-resolution on SNES; they're not blended except by the fact that period CRTs tended to not be super sharp. It's only the sprites that aren't hi-res, and I think that's understandable because the PPU doesn't actually upclock, so there isn't any more time to load sprite graphics during HBlank and hence using high resolution would cut the line coverage in half. (Though it'd be nice to have had the option...)

There's also a real interlace mode, and it can be applied to double the vertical resolution of sprites as well as BGs. (As in, there's a bit that causes the PPU to read even/odd lines of the sprite graphics on alternate fields, just like the BGs in Modes 5/6 with interlace on.)

"Pseudo-hires" is actual hi-res too. It's just that it requires the user to manually position graphics on main and sub screens to get the desired result, instead of reading 16x16 tiles natively.


Last edited by 93143 on Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:51 am 
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What's this supposed to mean? The BG modes are true high-resolution on SNES; they're not blended except by the fact that period CRTs tended to not be super sharp

This means that unlike the snes, PCE sprites are also affected by the dotclock ,not only the background tiles ,plus it seems that you can't have more than 1 bckgnd layer in this mode, true ??


Last edited by TOUKO on Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:14 am 
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Mode 5 has two layers, one 4bpp, the other 2bpp. Mode 6 has only one 4bpp layer, with offset-per-tile.

I think it's colour math that doesn't work normally. Since the main and sub screens are used for alternating half-dots, the only thing you can do is blend with the constant backdrop colour. In pseudo-hires mode with Modes 0-4 (and 7, with caveats), you can put different layers on the main and sub screens instead of even and odd pixels of the same graphic, and the TV will blur them so they look averaged; using backdrop colour math with this effect results in an apparent three-layer blend.

I agree that the sprites not being usable at H-512 resolution is annoying and limits the usefulness of the mode. However, it is a bit of a consolation that sprites can be natively displayed interlaced with no manual field toggling, and in any BG mode too. In fact, it is notable that technically both H-512 and interlace can be used to full effect in any BG mode; it's just that the special BG modes do the half-dot interleave and field toggling automatically and allow the graphics to be used as is instead of splitting them up (plus Mode 5 is more bandwidth-efficient, with effectively two normal-res 4bpp layers and two normal-res 2bpp layers, though Mode 6 can be faked in Mode 2).

How well does the manual interlace mode on the PC Engine work? Is it usable for games, or is the compatibility too dicey?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:23 am 
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How well does the manual interlace mode on the PC Engine work?

There is no interlaced mode on PCE,you can fake him (if is that you mean by manual) but IMO is unusable out of a demo .
Chris covell did it in his fractal demo, but i think is a simple screen switch technique (each frame you change the screen between even/odd lines), like some computers demo do for displaying more colors than the graphic chip can do .
The screen has a annoying flickering, and the frame rate drop to 30 fps,not really convenient for a game :( .


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:52 am 
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Quote:
it's a true hi-res mode,it's not like the snes one.


I can't wait for @koitsu 's response to this comment.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:02 am 
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dougeff wrote:
Quote:
it's a true hi-res mode,it's not like the snes one.


I can't wait for @koitsu 's response to this comment.

I don't know how to call it with sprites which still in low-res .

Quote:
^Used for superimposing "sfx" graphics, whatever that means. Usually 0. Not much is known about this bit. Interestingly, the SPPU1 chip has a pin named "EXTSYNC" (or not-EXTSYNC, since it has a bar over it) which is tied to Vcc.

^^When this bit is set, you may enable BG2 on Mode 7. BG2 uses the same tile and character data as BG1, but interprets the high bit of the color data as a priority for the pixel. Various sources report additional effects for this bit, possibly related to bit 7. For example, "Enable the Data Supplied From the External Lsi.", whatever that means. Of course, maybe that's a typo and it's supposed to apply to bit 7 instead.

^^^This creates a 512-pixel horizontal resolution by taking pixels from the subscreen for the even-numbered pixels (zero based) and from the main screen for the odd-numbered pixels. Color math behaves just as with Mode 5/6 hires. The interlace bit still has no effect. Mosaic operates as normal (not like Mode 5/6). The 'subscreen' pixel is clipped (by windows) when the main-screen pixel to the LEFT is clipped, not when the one to the RIGHT is clipped as you'd expect. What happens with pixel column 0 is unknown. Enabling this bit in Modes 5 or 6 has no effect.


Quote:
SETINI - Screen Mode/Video Select
2133 wb+++-
se--poIi
s = "External Sync".^
e = Mode 7 EXTBG ("Extra BG").^^
p = Enable pseudo-hires mode.^^^
o = Overscan mode.^^^^
I = OBJ Interlace.^^^^^
i = Screen interlace.^^^^^^

https://wiki.superfamicom.org/#toc-inid ... en-display

Enable pseudo-hires mode : eh,not a true hi-res mode . :P


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:31 am 
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gauauu wrote:
tepples wrote:
The man-hours needed to jump this [asset complexity] gap

I'm not sure I buy what you're arguing. Many homebrewers (including me) don't consider the market in thinking about making a game.

My point is that games developed without considering the market are practically limited in how many man-hours of work they can represent. At some point, a developer not considering the market still needs three hots and a cot just to survive. It's also why there are virtually no AAA games whose engine is day one free software.

gauauu wrote:
The GBA (as you know) had a good homebrew scene, and the visual expectations were similar to the SNES.

The homebrew scene for GBA produced exactly one commercial release, to my knowledge: gbadev 2004Mbit Competition. (Disclosure: This game credits me as a composer.)

TOUKO wrote:
tepples wrote:
It increases the dot clock rate from 5.37 MHz (like most TMS9918-inspired VDPs) to 7.16 MHz

No it's 5.37 up to 10.76,but the 10.76 mhz it's a true hi-res mode,it's not like the snes one.

Based on this post by tomaitheous, I was under the impression it had all three of 5.37, 7.16, and 10.74 MHz modes. But consider the context to which I was replying:
tokumaru wrote:
Aspect ratio is disregarded very frequently too, since all displays are wide-screen nowadays.

In the context of widescreen, 7.16 is probably the most useful because of how it preserves the pixel aspect ratio that 5.37 has on a 4:3 display. You still get 16 16x16-pixel sprites per line, and though 256/336 = 76% coverage is less than you get at 5.37, it's still a heck of a lot more than the 25% you get on an NES or even the 50% on a Game Boy or Game Boy Color.

TOUKO wrote:
gauauu wrote:
That doesn't mean every game has to have parallax.

I agree, tetris is here to remind us of this.

Then I'll qualify: Every 16-bit game that is side-view and not flip-screen has to have parallax, and even many that are flip-screen could benefit from animations behind the playfield like a cloud layer. Single-screen block games would be considered flip-screen by this definition.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:42 am 
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Quote:
Based on this post by tomaitheous, I was under the impression it had all three of 5.37, 7.16, and 10.74 MHz modes. But consider the context to which I was replying:

No problem, the 10.76 mhz is often forgoten :wink:

Quote:
Then I'll qualify: Every 16-bit game that is side-view and not flip-screen has to have parallax, and even many that are flip-screen could benefit from animations behind the playfield like a cloud layer. Single-screen block games would be considered flip-screen by this definition.

Yes, but i wanted to say it's not necessary to have parallax or even a scrolling to make a good game(as opposed to some sydney hunter comments),even if i agree that parallaxes are a 16 bit signature .


Last edited by TOUKO on Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:45 am 
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TOUKO wrote:
Quote:
Based on this post by tomaitheous, I was under the impression it had all three of 5.37, 7.16, and 10.74 MHz modes. But consider the context to which I was replying:

No problem, the 10.76 mhz is often forgoten :wink:

Quote:
Then I'll qualify: Every 16-bit game that is side-view and not flip-screen has to have parallax, and even many that are flip-screen could benefit from animations behind the playfield like a cloud layer. Single-screen block games would be considered flip-screen by this definition.

Yes, but i wanted to say it's not necessary to have parallax or even a scrolling to make a good game,even if i agree that parallaxes are a 16 bit signature .

I think the point they're making is that parallax is so easy on the SNES (just divide your scroll x value a bunch of times and put it in RAM, then make an HDMA table with pointers to those addresses) that not putting in that effort to make your game look way nicer is a bit of a waste.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:58 am 
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Of course ,the snes is obviously designed for that purpose, and this is why i develop only for SGX now,because of that(not only, but in part) .
But when you do an adaptation, you sometimes do not need parallaxes because the original game has no parallax, art of fighting neogeo is an example which come in mind,no parallaxes and no floor effects,and i don't think it looks less 16 bit than other games .


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:29 am 
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tepples wrote:
gauauu wrote:
The GBA (as you know) had a good homebrew scene, and the visual expectations were similar to the SNES.

The homebrew scene for GBA produced exactly one commercial release, to my knowledge: gbadev 2004Mbit Competition. (Disclosure: This game credits me as a composer.)

That's my point. The GBA had a great homebrew scene, even if there weren't a lot of commercial releases. The SNES could have the same.

(and there were other releases than the 2004 competition cart, even if you weren't aware of them)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:58 am 
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tepples wrote:
gauauu wrote:
If you're going to make an SNES game, people will wonder why bother unless it uses some of the SNES capabilities?

Because there is no retro platform with visual capability greater than that of the NES and GBC and less than that of the Genesis and Super NES that is well known in the Americas or Europe. Thus any game on the low end of this gap ends up having to be scaled down to the NES and GBC, and any game on the high end of this gap needs additional budget to make its graphics at least comparable to the Genesis and Super NES launch lineup.

1.) The Commodore 64 will out do a NES (MMC5 starts to get a good fight ;) ), you can hem and haw about it. But higher res, more colours, and no stupid vblank limits,more sprite coverage and more sprite data per line. And a better sound chip, and a commercial market. Established means of digital distribution and common 1Meg carts that users can flash. Multiple fanzines, professional sites, news sites and a very active scene. The Mini has just been released and we are seeing a nice uptick in eyeballs and interest in the C64 again. And the mini while cumbersome at the moment can and does allow you to add your own disk images to play which should improve soon, and it hasn't launched in the USA yet.
But you want more... ok you want more like a SNES but not quite a SNES.. you want to be "Celeste" 10/10 levels of graphics ...
2.) The Amiga 500, dual field, 32 colours, BOBs, 68K and C development, there are a couple of engines around as well. Sample based sound makes the audio chip argument moot.
To which you can go for OCS(to cut back) or ECS(for "normal")... want a a bit more... ok go 1200 and AGA then.
3.) I feel another growth market would be MS DOS.. CGA/EGA/VGA/SVGA as you like it ;The 8bit guy is currently making a game for it and I'm curious to see the results vs the C64 market.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:53 am 
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Oziphantom wrote:
1.) The Commodore 64 will out do a NES (MMC5 starts to get a good fight ;) ), you can hem and haw about it. But higher res, more colours, and no stupid vblank limits,more sprite coverage and more sprite data per line. And a better sound chip, and a commercial market. Established means of digital distribution and common 1Meg carts that users can flash. Multiple fanzines, professional sites, news sites and a very active scene. The Mini has just been released and we are seeing a nice uptick in eyeballs and interest in the C64 again. And the mini while cumbersome at the moment can and does allow you to add your own disk images to play which should improve soon, and it hasn't launched in the USA yet.

Super fat wide pixels, a single button on the controller, a pansy sound chip with 3 channels and no individual gain control (hope you want arpeggios all day), complete balls for character banking, and a blanking region that is 10km wide. Sixteen entire colors, as saturated as a worn 1960s educational film. Yes, surely this'll stomp out the NES.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:12 am 
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Oziphantom wrote:
1.) The Commodore 64 will out do a NES

I think both systems have their strengths so there's no objective winner - which one is "the best" is a matter of opinion and the personal criteria used by whoever is judging.

Quote:
But higher res

Are you kidding me? With those fat pixels? Unless you mean the 2-color mode, but Spectrum-like graphics are hardly competition for the NES.

I bet that the average person will consider C64 graphics more outdated than what the NES has to offer, mainly because of the fat pixels that result in an overall blocky look.

Quote:
more colours

Again, are you kidding? The C64 may have better color distribution, IDK, but its master palette is much shorter than the NES's, and looks quite washed out.

Quote:
and no stupid vblank limits,more sprite coverage and more sprite data per line.

Now those are more like actual advantages. I don't think the vblank limitation is that bad though... it only starts getting in the way when you need to transfer atipically high amounts of VRAM data for NES standards (e.g. CHR-RAM animations, full backgrounds). Sprite coverage does kinda suck on the NES.

Quote:
And a better sound chip

I'm no musician, but from what I hear the C64 is indeed highly praised for its sound chip, but the NES seems quite capable too, compared to most other 8-bit systems.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:28 am 
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SMS is the most halfway between NES and SNES, in my opinion.


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