Bad Apple demo on SNES (alternate version)

Discussion of hardware and software development for Super NES and Super Famicom.

Moderator: Moderators

Forum rules
  • For making cartridges of your Super NES games, see Reproduction.
User avatar
Señor Ventura
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:58 am

Re: Bad Apple demo on SNES (alternate version)

Post by Señor Ventura » Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:46 am

But the music is synchronized, only that the quality is clearly lower.

psycopathicteen
Posts: 2979
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 6:12 pm

Re: Bad Apple demo on SNES (alternate version)

Post by psycopathicteen » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:13 am

Is it just me or are the vocals in Bad Apple kind've muffled to begin with?

93143
Posts: 1310
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:31 pm

Re: Bad Apple demo on SNES (alternate version)

Post by 93143 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:00 am

Señor Ventura wrote:But the music is synchronized, only that the quality is clearly lower.
Is the latest work getting posted somewhere I don't know about, or are you just talking about the old one?
psycopathicteen wrote:Is it just me or are the vocals in Bad Apple kind've muffled to begin with?
I don't think so. I think there's just so much high-frequency energy in the rest of the instrumentation that the vocals get a little buried.


93143
Posts: 1310
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:31 pm

Re: Bad Apple demo on SNES (alternate version)

Post by 93143 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:28 pm

I'm getting a virus warning. I don't know if it's Firefox or Avast, but something is refusing to let me have the file.

User avatar
Drew Sebastino
Formerly Espozo
Posts: 3503
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:35 pm
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Re: Bad Apple demo on SNES (alternate version)

Post by Drew Sebastino » Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:40 pm

I'm actually not getting a virus warning. I use Internet Explorer. I had to click the "FREE USER" button on the bottom left of the screen twice, with each time some BS website popping up that I exited out of, but then it asked me if I wanted to download the file, and it worked. I always use Media Fire, as I haven't had any problems with it.

Damn though, seeing something like that on the SNES is surreal. The sound quality is great. Surprisingly, I think the vocals sound clearer than the electronic noises.

93143
Posts: 1310
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:31 pm

Re: Bad Apple demo on SNES (alternate version)

Post by 93143 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:52 pm

Huh. Tried IE and it worked (with ads). And now Avast says "no threat found". Maybe the site detects AdBlock and tries to take revenge?

Oh well.

Watched it a couple of times. Looks like a blip right near the end of Flandre's section, but otherwise smooth. Very nice! (Though the screen doesn't blank at the end...)

psycopathicteen
Posts: 2979
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 6:12 pm

Re: Bad Apple demo on SNES (alternate version)

Post by psycopathicteen » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:35 pm

I boosted the mid range to make the voices sound clearer.

http://www.megafileupload.com/oqTD/Bad_ ... _boost.zip

93143
Posts: 1310
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:31 pm

Re: Bad Apple demo on SNES (alternate version)

Post by 93143 » Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:30 pm

I'm not sure that's such a good idea. The vocals do seem to pop out more, but the frequency balance of the whole track is now unpleasantly heavy on the mids.

Honestly I don't think the mix really needs fixing, and if it did we wouldn't be able to do much without the individual tracks. It's just a busy style - I'm sure a Japanese speaker wouldn't have a problem with the vocals.

...

Also, how are you aligning the video and audio? I'm hearing the audio a significant fraction of a beat late, about half a beat late in the early parts of the video, which is too much to be explained by the emulator's audio buffer, but perhaps not too much for a system buffer downstream... I've tested on my laptop (with crappy onboard audio) in bsnes v072, bsnes+ v073, no$sns and Snes9XW (Snes9X and ZSNES don't work), and on my dedicated music rig (with an E-MU 1212m) in no$sns and bsnes v017 (!); they all seem to behave about the same except for bsnes v017, in which the audio outright fails halfway through... I can't seem to find any way to check non-ASIO buffer sizes on either machine, and I don't have a flash cartridge capable of loading an 8 MB ROM; can anyone confirm the timing on real hardware with a CRT and analog audio? Or would that be overkill for something that should be perfectly predictable given the data and code?

Speaking of real hardware, are you doing any sort of active sync, or do you simply bet on the APU oscillator being accurate enough?

Markfrizb
Posts: 536
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:17 am
Location: East Texas

Re: Bad Apple demo on SNES (alternate version)

Post by Markfrizb » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:33 pm

psycopathicteen wrote:http://www.megafileupload.com/oqSB/Bad_Apple.zip

Now with 16khz audio.
Sound doesn't work on Real HW with this version. Just a FYI

Edit: to be more clear, sound breaks in the first second of power-on but the animation stays running for approx. 3:38 on real hardware.

the other version https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php ... 56#p179854 sound and video both work on real HW as-is.
Last edited by Markfrizb on Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
koitsu
Posts: 4218
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:28 pm
Location: A world gone mad

Re: Bad Apple demo on SNES (alternate version)

Post by koitsu » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:44 pm

93143 wrote:... I've tested on my laptop (with crappy onboard audio) in bsnes v072, bsnes+ v073, no$sns and Snes9XW (Snes9X and ZSNES don't work) ...
Specifically for snes9x (64-bit test builds) (snes9x_testbuild_11102015.zip is the latest): loads + runs, but the demo soft-locks after a few frames of animation, with a very odd audible effect that I can't put my finger on (gut feeling is some kind of sound engine problem, but hard to say).

Ladida
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: Bad Apple demo on SNES (alternate version)

Post by Ladida » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:35 pm

hi. im the author of the demo linked in the first post
Markfrizb wrote:the other version https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php ... 56#p179854 sound and video both work on real HW as-is.
this is great to hear; i was never able to test it on hardware


i had numerous planned improvements planned before scrapping them for the easy way aka LZ2 (i discuss some of them in the smwc thread). i doubt you guys require my help considering youre far more advanced than i am, but im here regardless in case anything is needed (questions w/e)

Markfrizb
Posts: 536
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:17 am
Location: East Texas

Re: Bad Apple demo on SNES (alternate version)

Post by Markfrizb » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:09 pm

Ladida wrote:hi. im the author of the demo linked in the first post
Markfrizb wrote:the other version https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php ... 56#p179854 sound and video both work on real HW as-is.
this is great to hear; i was never able to test it on hardware


i had numerous planned improvements planned before scrapping them for the easy way aka LZ2 (i discuss some of them in the smwc thread). i doubt you guys require my help considering youre far more advanced than i am, but im here regardless in case anything is needed (questions w/e)
If you need anything else tested on real HW, just let me know. I make Snes pcbs that have a wide range of capabilities. Cool demo! I'm very impressed. Maybe you could add a loop feature where at the end it restarts on it own???

User avatar
Señor Ventura
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:58 am

Re: Bad Apple demo on SNES (alternate version)

Post by Señor Ventura » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:49 pm

93143 wrote:Is the latest work getting posted somewhere I don't know about, or are you just talking about the old one?
No, no, i'm talking about the 15fps version, but it souns lossy to me.

If it were at 32khz using the older samples, the music should be asynchronous, right?.

So... if really it goes at 32khz?, i found this confusing ^^u

93143
Posts: 1310
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:31 pm

Re: Bad Apple demo on SNES (alternate version)

Post by 93143 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:00 pm

Well, BRR is a bit lossy, and it's not possible to perfectly compensate for the S-DSP's Gaussian antialiasing (you can come close, but I think it accentuates the loss of quality caused by the BRR). But mostly I think what you're hearing is the fact that it's been converted to mono.

The 15 fps version and the 30 fps version are totally unrelated; they're done by different people working independently. They aren't using each other's "samples"; they're using different conversions of the original 44.1 kHz stereo track. The 15 fps version uses a 32 kHz mono stream. The 30 fps version uses a 16 kHz mono stream (it was reduced to 12 kHz a while ago due to CPU overload, but the video decoder has been sped up and so the audio has been reverted to 16 kHz).

There was indeed an old developmental WIP of the 30 fps version that ran a 16 kHz audio stream at a lower rate (~14 kHz or something like that), but that was because the decoder was having trouble sustaining 30 fps, so the audio was stretched to fit the video. Such measures have not been necessary for a long time; all recent versions run the audio at the correct pitch.

...

Oh, hey - I just noticed something. Ladida's version has the same audio/video sync issue I noticed with psycopathicteen's version. Maybe it is a PC-related audio buffering issue... Markfrizb, if you don't mind checking, how does the timing look on real hardware? Is the audio synchronized properly with the video in the 15 fps version, or is it half a beat late?

Post Reply