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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:40 am 
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In this post, Espozo wrote:
I'm just saying, I'll be more impressed when I finally see a beat em up game on either the SNES or the Genesis with 8 good sized and well animated characters onscreen.

For the Super NES, this practically means eight characters at 2K each, with up to two animated each frame. This leaves time for OAM DMA and a little bit of background animation.

But before design of an original beat-em-up tech demo for Super NES can begin in earnest, we'll need two things. One is finding an artist to draw the player character animation and enemy animations. The other, less obvious job is choreographing how a character would actually fight seven opponents at once.

In many popular beat-em-ups, such as Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Final Fight, the player can move in all eight directions but attack only to the left or right. This allows storing a character's animation cels in only one direction, which was important when Super NES Game Paks were rarely larger than 8 Mbit. But nowadays, memory isn't quite as much of a limiting factor as artist labor.

But enemies couldn't attack up or down either. So it was essentially up and down to choose on which plane to fight and left and right to move on that plane. This reinforced the same sort of "stand around and look busy" choreography described in "6 Absurd Action Tropes You Never Noticed And Can't Unsee" by Saikat Bhowmik, Nathan Wadowski, and Andrea Meno.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:43 am 
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The fact is the Md can use all his VRAM for sprites, if you look at the SOR series, you'll can see that only the player's sprites (and maybe some bosses) have dynamic animations, the classic opponents stay in vram,and it's much easy to display 5/6 big sprites on screen, you must only take care of sprites per scanline limit .

The sprites managment is also better on MD, and permit to reduce the sprites flickering more easily .


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:58 am 
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TOUKO wrote:
The fact is the Md can use all his VRAM for sprites

And then make the backgrounds as detailed as ColecoVision or NES backgrounds, correct? If you use 48K of the Genesis's VRAM for sprites, you're down to one scrolling plane and few tiles for the background.

But that's all beside my point: If you're going to be animating 7 guys at 25 frames per second, you need an animator to draw those 25 frames that will be stored in the ROM and copied into VRAM. And you still need to choreograph each fight in which the cels shall be displayed. Are you volunteering for these tasks?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:03 am 
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Quote:
And then make the backgrounds as detailed as ColecoVision or NES backgrounds, correct?

Yes, but even if the backgrouds are less detailled, can we consider they are at a nes or coleco level ??
And the deal is, detailled backgrounds and poor action, or the opposite ??

If you look at SOR 2 and 3, you can not say they are poor or bad,they only lack color .

Image

Image


Last edited by TOUKO on Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:07 am 
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And Haunted: Halloween '85 showed that 256 tiles at a time with about 10 colors can go a long way. But the Streets of Rage games also had teams of full-time animators working on their sprite cels. The limit I'm describing is not how much video memory, DMA bandwidth to video memory, or horizontal sprite coverage the system has. It's the "I need 2300 calories a day and a roof over my head" limit, and the "how's one guy gonna fight seven at a time?" limit.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:14 am 
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Quote:
But SOR 2 and 3 also had teams of full-time animators working on their sprite cels.

i agree, but it's not a team that permit to displaying 6/7 big sprites on screen . :wink:

The final fight case is also a good exemple,looks at the Md version, it's awful on the color's side IMO, but there is 5/6 sprites on screen at same time .

Quote:
The limit I'm describing is not how much video memory, DMA bandwidth to video memory, or horizontal sprite coverage the system has

Of course, but less you have to DMAing, and most chance you have to display more sprites because you can clone some of it without to care about if you have the DMA budget .

This why SOR 1 on the boat level can display 10/11 sprites on screen (of course,all sprites are smaller than FF or SOR 2/3)
https://youtu.be/bMsBkXGDix4?t=21m18s


Last edited by TOUKO on Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:20 am 
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What I'm saying is that I could make a demo of beating up 5 to 7 guys on the screen, provided that you provide a suitable set of sprite cels that I can legally use. My question was "Can I have a set of sprite cels to test with?" and your answer was "Mega Drive is better than Super NES for this application."


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:22 am 
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tepples wrote:
What I'm saying is that I could make a demo of beating up 5 to 7 guys on the screen, provided that you provide a suitable set of sprite cels that I can legally use. My question was "Can I have a set of sprite cels to test with?" and your answer was "Mega Drive is better than Super NES for this application."

Oups sorry :oops:

if you want just make a proof of concept or a demo, i think you can use some arcade/consoles sprites rip without any risk .
http://spritedatabase.net/


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:36 am 
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I made this guy a little too big.

Attachment:
really really big man.png
really really big man.png [ 5.33 KiB | Viewed 1102 times ]


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:44 am 
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I can scale the sprite using any of several algorithms, but I'll need all movements and attacks animated.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:22 am 
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Location: Hong Kong
tepples wrote:
"Can I have a set of sprite cels to test with?"

Will sprites for an old obscure PC fighting game engine work?
You may just download any of the KOF91 packages and grab some sprites from the sprites/charlce folder. Also download the RSMAN.ZIP archive from this old page for another character.
These characters are definitely free to be used and butchered because well... I drew them. (The reason Ricesheet Man was not included in the engine package was that it was still of an older version that didn't contain all the required sprites for the new moves introduced in a newer version of the engine and I was yet to update it yet.)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:06 am 
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Coffee Crisis (Gen) has up to 6 characters on screen at once (was 7 while in development, but later dropped as it was too hard, among other reasons), two players and four enemies. Even that occasionally has to delay an enemy frame update for a frame or two when running out of DMA budget.

That amount also hit the scanline limit when there were a few breakables on screen + the shadows. So, 8 is not really happening, unless they are small, or instances of the same enemy and with a small enough number of frames to fit the entire sheet in VRAM.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:31 am 
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I made a quick rough animation.

Attachment:
tough guy.gif
tough guy.gif [ 13.62 KiB | Viewed 1053 times ]


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:46 am 
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I've drawn an awful sprite that I think matches the quality of the gameplay of Double Dragon (arcade).

Muscles, or tumors?


Attachments:
barfguy.png
barfguy.png [ 1.82 KiB | Viewed 1045 times ]
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:58 pm 
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He looks like a Simpsons character.


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