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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:43 pm 
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A Super Nintendo controller is designed like this
Code:
   X
Y     A
   B

It's easy to remember, because everyone knows B comes before A in the alphabet, Y comes before X, Y is the horizontal axis and X is the vertical axis, and most importantly, Y is where B was on an NES controller was and B is where A was on an NES controller so that an NES player would not get confused.

So I have a couple ideas of how to arrange the controls.

1) have Y being shoot, and X being kick
2) have Y kick nearby enemies but shoot enemies that are farther away
3) have a "weapon change" option


Last edited by psycopathicteen on Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:59 pm 
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I think it depends on what you anticipate players wanting to do the most often.

For me, I normally have my thumb resting across the B and Y buttons at the same time, which makes it easy to alternate between rapidly pressing either of them, but slightly less easy to reach over and hit X or A. So depending on what B does, Y should probably do something equally basic/common.

You might also consider mapping all the most common player actions to B, Y, L and R so that someone can hold the controller this way and not have to actually move their fingers around too much (aside from using the D-pad). Then you can reserve A and X for things that the player will probably only need to do every once in a while.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:20 pm 
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Players of Smash Bros. on a Nintendo 64 or GameCube controller would be used to this binding:

A, X, Up: jump
B: kick
Y: shoot

Players of Smash Bros. on a Wii Classic Controller would be used to this binding:

Y, X, Up: jump
A: kick
B: shoot

I guess you could subject your play testers to a "config wizard" like the following and see what they come up with.
Code:
Press button for
each action

> Jump
  Kick
  Fire


Pressing B would advance to the next line:
Code:
Press button for
each action

  Jump - B
> Kick
  Fire


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:30 pm 
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It probably depends on what sort of game it is. Platformers on SNES usually used B to jump, Y for primary weapon. But other genres had different norms. As much as possible, I'd try to match the norm for whatever genre game you're making. Play a bunch of SNES games as similar to yours as you can find, and see what they do.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:57 pm 
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I really like what R-Type III does, which is map the common action (in R-Type III's case, Force Pod detach) to A and B, and the two other actions (charge shot and rapid fire) to X and Y. This way, you can use either the charge shot or rapid fire and not have to do any sort of weird thumb maneuver to use the Force Pod detach.

I'd suggest doing the same thing with this game; map jump to A and B, and kick to Y and shot to X, although the order of the last two are more a matter of preference. This way, you can easily jump while either kicking or shooting, and the control for jumping will still feel the same.

R-Type III also lets you freely assign the action of each button, which is something I think should be standard in every videogame.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:16 pm 
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Seconding Espozo's suggestion of just making it customizable. Obviously the question for the default is still open.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:33 pm 
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I just thought of a sneaky trick that might work. If you push Y for less than 1/4 of a second, it will kick on release of button, otherwise it will shoot. But it would always kick immediately when an enemy is in close range. Though it might look weird shooting a couple bullets before going into the kicking animation.

BTW, did anybody notice the joke I made in the OP about the way Super Nintendo controllers are laid out, where the letters are the opposite of what you would expect.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:06 pm 
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psycopathicteen wrote:
I just thought of a sneaky trick that might work. If you push Y for less than 1/4 of a second, it will kick on release of button, otherwise it will shoot. But it would always kick immediately when an enemy is in close range. Though it might look weird shooting a couple bullets before going into the kicking animation.

Just stick with my idea. :lol:

psycopathicteen wrote:
BTW, did anybody notice the joke I made in the OP about the way Super Nintendo controllers are laid out, where the letters are the opposite of what you would expect.

Yes. :roll:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:17 pm 
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psycopathicteen wrote:
Y is the horizontal axis and X is the vertical axis
wat.
psycopathicteen wrote:
BTW, did anybody notice the joke I made in the OP
oh.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:26 pm 
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Maybe, I'll try doing it with Y as shoot, A as kick, X and shoulder buttons as dash.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:12 pm 
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Things like that need to be customizable.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:32 am 
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I'm actually against customizable controls. In general, I don't like customization in video games - if anything is possible to change up, I think it always works best as an organic option in the game design. Of course this isn't always easy to pull off, and difficulty selections is an obvious example - Hard mode for people who want a tough challenge, it's acceptable, but it's way cooler if the game is able to dynamically be able to challenge players who want something extra to go for (think the tricks you need to pull off for scoring higher in Cave shooters, etc.)

Anyway, overall I think allowing players to customize stuff like controls, graphic options, etc. demonstrates a weakness in your game design - that you as a developer were unable to figure out what's the best for your game. What's next, remove all stages and put in a level editor instead? (stupid example, but hopefully you get my drift :P). There is no way I can play Super Metroid or any of the Mega Man X games without changing the controls first. I'm thankful that those games allow it, but you know what would have been better? A logical arrangement of the buttons in the first place. I doubt anyone can seriously argue that the dash shouldn't always be on a shoulder button in the X games. You need to be able to do it while both holding a shot charge and jumping, the game is designed around it, so the controls should, too. I wouldn't even give the player the option to configure the buttons so you aren't able to do it.

Regarding your original question, it completely depends on the game design - but I'm a fan of minimalistic button setups for action games, so the idea with having one button work as both a melee and long range attacks sounds like the best option, by far, in my opinion. This is how Metal Slug does it, and it's always worked great.
As everyone has been pointing out, the X button should only ever be used for actions that aren't necessary to do while you're doing either of the "Y" or "B" options (attacking/jumping). Switching weapons is a good choice, but only if you have only two weapons, so the player doesn't have to cycle thorugh multiple options. Also, in the example of shooting or kicking I feel like the two weapons are so different and situational that you need to alternate between them on the fly, so you need to be able to employ them without having to press any extra buttons first.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:11 am 
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TmEE wrote:
Things like that need to be customizable.

You still need a configuration by default, and in the case of a battery-less cartridge that is intended to either be played in one sitting, the customisation won't be remembered after a power-cycle, meaning that the players playing with a non-standard configuration will have to manually re-configure their control every single time they want to play, which is an annoyance. Passwords could remember the configuration but it could significantly increase the password's complexity.

@Sumez: I don't understand your rage against customization. Sure, it's not the solution for everything (see my comment above), however I don't see how having something customizable hurts the game in any way, as long as the default configuration is ok. At worst it's unnecessary/increase programming complexity, but I fail to see how it would hurt the game.

@tepples:
Quote:
Players of Smash Bros. on a Nintendo 64 or GameCube controller would be used to this binding:

A, X, Up: jump
B: kick
Y: shoot

Players of Smash Bros. on a Wii Classic Controller would be used to this binding:

Y, X, Up: jump
A: kick
B: shoot

Both of those control shemes sounds terrible to me.

I'd go with:
B=Jump
Y=Kick
X=Shoot

Assuming shoot is more powerful but slower and used less often than kick.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:21 am 
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Quote:
There is no way I can play Super Metroid or any of the Mega Man X games without changing the controls first. I'm thankful that those games allow it, but you know what would have been better? A logical arrangement of the buttons in the first place. ... I doubt anyone can seriously argue that the dash shouldn't always be on a shoulder button in the X games.

I think you should think more deeply about why options exist. There are ways to seriously argue that dash shouldn't be on a shoulder button in the X games. But the option removes the argument.

It's me, the gamer with half an arm who can't access the shoulder buttons as easily as the face buttons on one half of the controller.
It's me, the gamer who plays an FPS with a mouse and keyboard.
It's me, the gamer who plays an FPS on a controller.
It's me, the gamer who flies aircrafts for a living, and down should be up.
It's me, the gamer who doesn't, and down should be down.

The last two lead to a question you can answer logically in a different ways. "Am I controlling the viewport, or the player's head?" Imagine I stick a joystick in a neck. If I tilt down, the head would look up. Imagine the viewport is a plane parallel to the screen that I am controlling like pacman (or I am controlling the crosshair like pacman). Then down should move it down.

What is intuitive or logical actually changes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7yxJDFvTRM

And not just with generations, as that video demonstrates. But with culture. I'd prefer if SNES Yoshi's Island shooting was on a shoulder button (like the GBA version, which had fewer buttons), but that would alienate people who think it shouldn't. And having "hasty" egg shooting as the only option would be less intuitive, while having "patient" shooting be the only option would force extra inputs. Neither is "right", software is tradeoffs. Your average isometric game usually lets you choose whether up is up, or up is some diagonal because different people who have never played the type of game before will have a different, but logical, idea about what up should do. (Up, because the button is relative to my screen. Up left, because the button is relative to the tilt of the world)

There are definitely times where I agree that options can show the developer is unable to figure out what's best, controls are not one of them. Especially think about people with actual disabilities. Customizing graphics options is for people who don't have money for the best possible computer to still be able to play a game, while people that can afford a super rig can enjoy it looking prettier. And maybe the highest settings are the "best", but why keep people who are unable to get that experience entirely out?
Quote:
players playing with a non-standard configuration will have to manually re-configure their control every single time they want to play,

This happens in the average fighting game tournament, every new bracket match. Smart games in the genre do push to set. Push your buttons in a fixed order and you're done. (And have verified all the buttons work in your input device by doing so.)

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:14 am 
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Kasumi wrote:
I think you should think more deeply about why options exist. There are ways to seriously argue that dash shouldn't be on a shoulder button in the X games.

Let's just be clear here - I would never advocate against adding layers to your game in the service of accessability to disabled players, etc.
However, I think you also need to set a limitation here. There are some games that could be played with only one arm, but for the vast majority of games, having only one arm is a clear disadvantage, and that's just how it is - you can't really fault the developers. Most games can't be played if you are blind either, and that's just a limitation of the medium.
If you do have a disability, it's commendable of the developers to approach that disability, but most of the time, overcoming it would always be a challenge on the user end of things, and you'd probably be able to find or build a special controller to play these games, or come up with other creative solutions (see: speedrunner Halfcoordinated who plays action games on a competitive level despite having this disability).

Anyway, I'm not talking about accomodating special end-user conditions. I'm talking about a central gameplay element and how it is utilized. Those are different things.
If you are building a simulator, I think it makes sense to allow different levels of realism. Make settings that allow people to approach it more as a video game, but definitely accomodate the correct simulation, ie. your example of a person flies aircrafts for a living, he should get a good experience from a simulation. But Afterburner isn't a simulation, and in my opinion all people who play this game in an arcade should compete on similar bases.
In general though, inverting the Y axis has become such a "standardized customization" nowadays that I think it's impossible to create a game without giving this option, and honestly that's not a good thing, but I do recognize that it's a necessity. But if you are creating a video game - more exactly, if you are creating a tight action game with a gameplay focus - the controls are a part of your game design. I'm not against making options for various accomodations that you consider necessary, but don't make them simply because you think people would have different opinions on which is the better design for your game. People will also have different opinions on whether the final boss should have multiple forms or wether you should have a checkpoint between each of them - but that's not their call, it's yours.


Bregalad wrote:
@Sumez: I don't understand your rage against customization. Sure, it's not the solution for everything (see my comment above), however I don't see how having something customizable hurts the game in any way, as long as the default configuration is ok. At worst it's unnecessary/increase programming complexity, but I fail to see how it would hurt the game.

I'm not raging, I'm being completely objective. Also, I'm not against customization (read above). I'm against using customization as a solution to your game design issues.


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