SNES Doom Source Released! Now What?

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creaothceann
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Re: SNES Doom Source Released! Now What?

Post by creaothceann » Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:45 pm

93143 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:38 pm
Just using muffling is a possibility, but that's already in use to signal that the source is behind an obstacle. Having the player turn out to be the obstacle in question is a bit of a jerk move; basically this would result in no audible difference between a demon around the corner in front of you and a demon right behind you.
If it's around a corner, the sound would be louder from the left or right side. (Assuming of course that there will be no simulated sound reflection. :) ) Even if both cases sound the same, it wouldn't detract much from the experience, imo.
93143 wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:38 pm
What do you mean by "not physically accurate"? Do you have a specific approach in mind?
No, just anything that changes the sound somehow, like muffling (low sample rate), lowered volume, pitch shift, ...
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93143
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Re: SNES Doom Source Released! Now What?

Post by 93143 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:31 am

creaothceann wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:45 pm
If it's around a corner, the sound would be louder from the left or right side.
That's kinda moot considering the player can be facing pretty much any angle.
(Assuming of course that there will be no simulated sound reflection. :) )
Actually... I was considering using the BSP or the sector map to try to position each sound at the point where it emerges into line-of-sight with the player. Each level of indirection would increase the muffling level, up to (say) 3. Perhaps two versions of each muffling level might exist, with one having additional reverb baked in for each level, and the other only having additional reverb starting at the second level (so that indirect sounds coming from an adjacent sector flagged as outdoors wouldn't have additional baked-in reverb).

BSP notwithstanding, I think actual audio raytracing might be a bridge too far, so it might be okay to just have the sound come from the side of the opening furthest from the indirect source (or the previous propagation point), or maybe from the nearest side, or maybe even just from the middle of the opening... whichever turns out to be least confusing in practice...

So anyway, if the sound source behind that corner I was talking about was indoors, it would not sound the same, because there would be extra reverb baked into the sample. If it were outdoors, the reverb level would be lowered by one, so it would sound the same.

...

I don't think it's a good idea to use a cue that's established to mean "the sound source is behind a sturdy opaque barrier and therefore not an immediate threat" to also mean "the sound source is breathing down your neck". The mere fact that the sound is not muffled, yet you can't see the source, should be the right sort of clue. Also, if it's monsters, they tend to make different noises depending on whether they can see you or not. So that could help too...

Of course, if you can use Dolby Surround (either because you have a surround setup or because you have headphones and the right sort of brain), all this is irrelevant because it will actually sound like it's behind you.
lowered volume, pitch shift
I don't think those are ideal either. Lowered volume means "the sound source is far away", and pitch shift is already being randomized for the sake of variety. If that last wasn't true, downshifting sounds slightly might actually work, but as you say it wouldn't be realistic...

I'm pretty sure the original Doom on PC didn't do any fancy tricks. Monsters sounded exactly the same whether there was a wall in between or not, and I'm pretty sure it was only stereo and not surround (although apparently at least some source ports have surround). Adding reverb (both baked and using S-DSP echo) and muffling and relocation for indirect sounds is already a huge step up, assuming it can be pulled off in a way that sounds good.


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Re: SNES Doom Source Released! Now What?

Post by Nikku4211 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:01 pm

Señor Ventura wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:01 pm
Doom on genesis:
https://twitter.com/krikzz/status/13342 ... 61508?s=19
Oh no... It's even WORSE than the SNES version!!!

Yes, he used expansion RAM, and the FPGA seems to be doing the rendering, so technically, it doesn't just use stock hardware.

Also, nice C code.

Someone in the Twitter thread did mention Fraggle's MiniWAD.

I feel like MiniWAD should be tested with SNES Doom. It already looks just like SNES Doom anyway.
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Re: SNES Doom Source Released! Now What?

Post by 93143 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:00 pm

There are apparently two versions. On github he claims that the accelerated version gets 1-2 fps (which is what we see in the video), while the bare 68000 version can only manage one frame every 2-3 seconds.

It seems to be a fairly direct port of the Linux version, in C. A hardware-specific pseudo-Doom built from the ground up in assembly (like the SNES version) would probably perform much better, although no doubt it would still be terribly slow without a helper chip...

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Re: SNES Doom Source Released! Now What?

Post by aa-dav » Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:29 am

It has textures on floor and ceiling, so comparisons with subj are foggy.
Hm... It will be interesing if someone takes Sega Virtua Processor (answer of Sega to SuperFX) and make full analog of subj. :)
I goggle for it and it seems similar to SuperFX 16-bit RISC processor oriented for working inside cartridge of SMD.

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Re: SNES Doom Source Released! Now What?

Post by Oziphantom » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:30 am

Given an A500 can't run Doom, even a A1200 can't really run Doom. A MD has no chance.

That being said the Toy Story 3D sections are pretty good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMWEknq-Now however single plane, no windows, simple geometry, no enemies etc etc

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Señor Ventura
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Re: SNES Doom Source Released! Now What?

Post by Señor Ventura » Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:05 am

Oziphantom wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:30 am
Given an A500 can't run Doom, even a A1200 can't really run Doom. A MD has no chance.

That being said the Toy Story 3D sections are pretty good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMWEknq-Now however single plane, no windows, simple geometry, no enemies etc etc
I post it quickly...

Image

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poorstudenthobbyist
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Re: SNES Doom Source Released! Now What?

Post by poorstudenthobbyist » Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:20 pm

Oziphantom wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:30 am
Given an A500 can't run Doom, even a A1200 can't really run Doom. A MD has no chance.

That being said the Toy Story 3D sections are pretty good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMWEknq-Now however single plane, no windows, simple geometry, no enemies etc etc
I had completely forgotten Toy Story did this. That game had a lot of unique levels.
I remember playing this level as a kid, and then going to my cousin's house some time later and playing Wolfenstein 3D on his dad's computer, and being like "what the heck, they ripped off Toy Story on the Genesis!"
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Re: SNES Doom Source Released! Now What?

Post by Maxwelthuthu » Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:13 am

Señor Ventura wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:05 am
Oziphantom wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:30 am
Given an A500 can't run Doom, even a A1200 can't really run Doom. A MD has no chance.

That being said the Toy Story 3D sections are pretty good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMWEknq-Now however single plane, no windows, simple geometry, no enemies etc etc
I post it quickly...

Image
The SNES version has a higher framerate, but there are less screen being rendered and the walls are way closer.
Both have scalled up screens, on Genesis is by software with some tilting to create dithering and on SNES by Mode 7.
Also, the screen is mirrored vertically to save processing.

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Re: SNES Doom Source Released! Now What?

Post by Nikku4211 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:06 am

Maxwelthuthu wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:13 am
The SNES version has a higher framerate, but there are less screen being rendered and the walls are way closer.
Both have scalled up screens, on Genesis is by software with some tilting to create dithering and on SNES by Mode 7.
Also, the screen is mirrored vertically to save processing.
But mode 7 doesn't support flipping tiles.
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Re: SNES Doom Source Released! Now What?

Post by 93143 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:27 am

It supports flipping the whole screen, and with HDMA it's easy to change your mind halfway down.

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Señor Ventura
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Re: SNES Doom Source Released! Now What?

Post by Señor Ventura » Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:28 am

Maxwelthuthu wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:13 am
The SNES version has a higher framerate, but there are less screen being rendered and the walls are way closer.
Both have scalled up screens, on Genesis is by software with some tilting to create dithering and on SNES by Mode 7.
Also, the screen is mirrored vertically to save processing.
Of course, the thing is that always are compared the sizes of the screen, but not the frame rate, so, the overall is near a performing match.

The genesis version is vertically mirrored too.

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Re: SNES Doom Source Released! Now What?

Post by Nikku4211 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:54 am

93143 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:27 am
It supports flipping the whole screen, and with HDMA it's easy to change your mind halfway down.
If they're doing mode 7, why aren't they zooming enough so that the border is no longer necessary? And I don't mean the black letterbox, I mean the border.
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Re: SNES Doom Source Released! Now What?

Post by tokumaru » Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:36 am

Because non-integer scaling looks like shit?

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