New homebrewn SNES game released - N-Warp Daisakusen

Discussion of hardware and software development for Super NES and Super Famicom.

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MottZilla
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Post by MottZilla » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:02 pm

But then you really need somewhere to load that data into. I don't think the built in 128K of RAM + 64k of VRAM would be enough. You'll need your BIOS and some RAM in a cartridge sitting on the A-Bus to make anything interesting. Though the neat thing about this idea would have been that the CD-ROM add-on could have been pretty much just the drive itself, and then the System Cartridge could be upgraded seperately at a later date. So they could have done what PCE did and started out with a basic CD-ROM system but then later upgraded it by having a system cart with more RAM and then later even put in a coprocessor like Super FX or SA-1.

It would have been sweet though CD-ROM technology (for video gaming) just cost too much back then I think. It would still be neat if someone would design and produce their own SNES CD-ROM. The idea to adapt the PCE CD-ROM is very cool.

Near
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Post by Near » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:28 pm

dXtr wrote:
d4s wrote:I have never heard of that CD-player add-on. Do you have any details? Sounds interesting.
Probably referring to the infamous official SNES CD-ROM. Which I'm sure you've heard about at least one time on AG?
No, I wasn't referring to the Phillips or Sony CD-ROM add-ons. This was for a language tutor thing, from what I recall. Again, it might not even exist.

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dXtr
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Post by dXtr » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:55 pm

byuu wrote:No, I wasn't referring to the Phillips or Sony CD-ROM add-ons. This was for a language tutor thing, from what I recall. Again, it might not even exist.
Ok. sounds interesting.

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Post by Near » Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:04 pm

It would still be neat if someone would design and produce their own SNES CD-ROM. The idea to adapt the PCE CD-ROM is very cool.
Yeah, the basic idea is that I don't want to emulate a fantasy device. But if someone can make real, tangible units, I'd be happy to try and emulate the devices. Would make for some great new homebrew, and redbook upgrades to existing games and such. Much easier to modify a few S-SMP BGM playback commands than it is to re-write a game for the PC.

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Post by tomaitheous » Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:10 pm

caitsith2 wrote: If 128 bytes is not enough, then you will have to make an interface chip, and come up with some register addressing scheme through that chip.
I think are about 8-12 memory mapped read/write ports total on the CD base system, so that wouldn't be problem.
But then you really need somewhere to load that data into. I don't think the built in 128K of RAM + 64k of VRAM would be enough. You'll need your BIOS and some RAM in a cartridge sitting on the A-Bus to make anything interesting. Though the neat thing about this idea would have been that the CD-ROM add-on could have been pretty much just the drive itself, and then the System Cartridge could be upgraded seperately at a later date. So they could have done what PCE did and started out with a basic CD-ROM system but then later upgraded it by having a system cart with more RAM and then later even put in a coprocessor like Super FX or SA-1.


Yeah. The CD base has 64k system ram built in but it would be futile to try and interface it with the SNES. Modifying only key bios subroutines for 65816 and the different mapped port locations and place it on a cart/rom. The cart would need system ram as well (4-8megabits would be decent).

It wouldn't give the SNES a lot in terms of upgrades(CDDA playback, ADPCM play unit + 64k internal ADPCM sample ram/buffer, huge storage), but the cool factor would be there ;) I love those old (video game anime) style cinemas with CD audio/voice acting.

Also, did the on cart coprocessors have direct access the B-BUS without effecting/interfering the sCPU?

Near
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Post by Near » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:48 pm

If you don't mind a lack of random in RAM, you could always use address registers, ala $2180. Set the address in $2181-3 and read/write to the auto-incrementing $2180 register.
Also, did the on cart coprocessors have direct access the B-BUS without effecting/interfering the sCPU?
The cartridge port has the B-bus on it, yes. But you need a PCB with the extra four pins on each side.

http://www.romhacking.net/docs/[195]ports.txt
/PA0-7 + /PARD + /PAWR.

Note that D0-7 appear to be shared. So I doubt you could bypass the S-CPU and have the expansion port device and cart talk to each other directly, unless you like bus conflicts.

And yes, as you can see, both the cart and expansion ports have IRQ lines.

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Post by tomaitheous » Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:31 pm

Note that D0-7 appear to be shared. So I doubt you could bypass the S-CPU and have the expansion port device and cart talk to each other directly, unless you like bus conflicts.
Oh man, there's no /RDY line on the cart port :( That would have been nice to have been able to pause the sCPU and drive the address and data bus. Assuming the sCPU is buffered against another device driving the bus like the stock 65816 was supposed to be - iirc.

At least there's an irq line on the external port (needed for ADPCM streaming and/or subchannel reads).

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Post by Near » Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:01 pm

Okay, I dug through some two-year-old threads to find this info again ...

http://www.famicom.biz/all/htmls/4988615006203.html
http://www.proc.org.tohoku.ac.jp/~hoshi/voicer/

It's not a CD-ROM add-on. It's an IR controller that sends commands to, I'm guessing, certain CD-player models, to select the desired tracks. It may be as tacky as just sending "next track" commands and expecting you to line the thing up yourself.

Pretty lame :(

EDIT: actually ... that gives me a good idea. The expansion port is a bitch to use, because of the custom connector. But the controller ports are quite easy. Splice an existing controller and use the wires.

Eg blargg's serial controller device. It would seem to be a lot easier to develop a physical CD-playing mechanism that you talk to through controller port 2 than through the expansion port.

Then just couple the audio+stereo out from both the SNES and CD-player with a cheap Radio Shack adapter.

In fact, I see no reason I couldn't rig up a PC program to simulate such a device now.

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Post by KungFuFurby » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:55 am

Oh, wait! I'm involved in Smash Bros for the SNES... and if I remember correctly, we recently ditched using the Nintendo characters out of copywrite concerns. :( The game is actually called SNES All-Stars at >Entertainment.

I'm also involved in an RPG for the SNES, and for both I'm making the music.

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Post by KungFuFurby » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:01 am

Jagasian wrote:This is very impressive. Given enough ROM space, I bet d4s could port Final Fantasy 7 to the SNES :)
Oh boy... I would be really suprised.

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Post by Bregalad » Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:58 pm

This is very impressive. Given enough ROM space, I bet d4s could port Final Fantasy 7 to the SNES Smile
This sure would be cool ! But Fianl Fantasy 7's music uses up to 16 music tracks and the SNES only have 8, so it would have to be scaled down to only 8 tracks.
Also, I doubt you'd want to store it streamed because there is like 80 tracks, and it takes 4 whole audio CDs (okay most tracks loops 2 times so it would take the equivalent of 2 CDs at best). This is 1400 MB.

I don't know how he managed to get 3D graphics on the SNES, so I'll be quiet about this point. The 3D found in FF7 isn't very compley either, it's mostly 3D characters with very few polygons (Clad is about 20 geomertical forms) pasted on a pre-rendered bitmap. The world map and minigames are in real-3D tough.
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Post by tepples » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:04 pm

Bregalad wrote:But Fianl Fantasy 7's music uses up to 16 music tracks and the SNES only have 8, so it would have to be scaled down to only 8 tracks.
But would that be much of a problem?
Also, I doubt you'd want to store it streamed because there is like 80 tracks, and it takes 4 whole audio CDs (okay most tracks loops 2 times so it would take the equivalent of 2 CDs at best).
But would the "bells, frogs, bing cherries, jingle bells, ham and cheese, SEPHIROTH!" fit in the SPC's RAM? How did Clay Fighter and the like do it?
The 3D found in FF7 isn't very compley either, it's mostly 3D characters with very few polygons (Clad is about 20 geomertical forms) pasted on a pre-rendered bitmap. The world map and minigames are in real-3D tough.
Some of those could be downgraded to FF4/FF6 standards without too much impact, I'm guessing.

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Bregalad
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Post by Bregalad » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:15 pm

tepples wrote: But would the "bells, frogs, bing cherries, jingle bells, ham and cheese, SEPHIROTH!" fit in the SPC's RAM? How did Clay Fighter and the like do it?
Well the real lyrics are in Latin. The longest sample in FF7 is the "veni-veni-venias vene-noe frachias" one and takes arround 200kb recored with 16-bit PCM.
It takes 9/16 of that size to place it into the SPC's RAM, that is 112kb. So no it doesn't fit, but it would if resampled. I've made a NROM NES cart that play those samples (that fits in 32kb by using your compression algorithm).

All 6 voices samples used for one-winged angel takes 850kb in 16-bit PCM alltogether, that makes arround 480kb BRR encoded. Their sample rate would have to be divided by 8 (3 octaves lower) to store all of them in SPC's ram, resuling in very poor quality.
Some of those could be downgraded to FF4/FF6 standards without too much impact, I'm guessing.
Sure, but that's not what he was talking about I guess.
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KungFuFurby
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Post by KungFuFurby » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:30 pm

That's where sample streaming comes in. :D ClayFighter did just that. I think the vocals for the One Winged Angel track should be streamed as well if that were to happen...

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Post by d4s » Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:47 pm

I don't think I'd ever want to port FF7 to the SNES.
Would be a nice feat, but not worth the tremendous effort imho.
I guess just about everything can be downgraded if you're willing to make compromises.


N-Warp Daisakusen doesn't render graphics in realtime 3d, btw.
That's just a pre-rendered video in the intro.
Hence the earlier discussion about video playback on the SNES.

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