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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:55 pm 
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Max current draw of a cart in the cartridge slot?


Some quick thoughts: One ROM uses 40mA while operating (checked the datasheet for the ROM) and some carts have 2 ROMs so thats at least 80mA.


Last edited by dext3r on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:04 pm 
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Don't forget the expansion chips, power regulator chips, and then RAM chips to go with a lot of expansion chips.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:39 pm 
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Quote:
Super Famicom Box KROM1

Great, that'll be interesting! At first glance, it seems to be actually Z80 code (or if my guess was correct, HD64180 code; ie. extended Z80).
Do you still have the box disassembled? The part number of the 80pin (or so) chip would be interesting (somewhere in rear right), and same for the 28pin one (near S-ENC A), and the part numbers of the various oscillators, and hires photos/scans of the PCBs would be fantastic, and and and....
Btw. do you have any clue if (and where) it connected to a coin counter? There seem to be some spare (internal) connectors in front right of the mainboard, but on existing photos, I couldn't see any external connectors (except audio/video/power etc).

Quote:
One ROM uses 40mA while operating (checked the datasheet for the ROM) and some carts have 2 ROMs so thats at least 80mA.

Good point to get started (I never thought about that at all). The SHVC-3J3M-01 does even have 3 ROMs (though no idea if those are 40mA chips), plus SRAM, plus MAD1,CIC,logic.
Quote:
Don't forget the expansion chips, power regulator chips, and then RAM chips to go with a lot of expansion chips.

Yeah. And there it's getting complicated... according to Nintendo, the GSU seems to be scratching the limits (though unclear if they refer to GSU1 or GSU2), but measuring the power consumption may return "incorrect" values (unless one ensures that GSU is always running; ie. consumption shold drop when it is stopped).
Hmmm, Nintendo didn't release any specs an max cartridge power consumption?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:14 pm 
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Quote:
Reads are acknowledged at time-4 {2,4,8}.
Writes are acknowledges at time-0 {6,8,12}.

Ah, so the reads may trigger in the "middle" of a CPU cycle? And the exact location may vary from chip to chip? Makes sense. No, don't have further info on that, I never got so far into low level timings.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in the internet is the "double" IRQ at H=339, V=0 (in fact, I haven't yet added it to my own doc). The CPU's vcount wraps to 0 one dot in advance, so you get two HV-IRQs for H=339,V=0 (one at end of line 261, one at end of line 0). And accordingly, no HV-IRQ for H=339,V=261. Haven't checked if any emus are reproducing that effect (mine isn't doing so yet).


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:39 pm 
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nocash wrote:
Hmmm, Nintendo didn't release any specs an max cartridge power consumption?


i assume the creators of the powerpak or sd2snes would know something. (or how else did they manage to stay within the snes power budget :?: )


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:03 pm 
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> Ah, so the reads may trigger in the "middle" of a CPU cycle?

Based on my observations, I believe that to be the case, but I cannot prove it from software. All I can provably say is $4201 write latches counters 4 clock ticks later than $2137 reads. Tepples mentions it is the case for the NES as well, which is also how I do things with my NES core.

> One thing I haven't seen mentioned in the internet is the "double" IRQ at H=339, V=0

I have not heard of that one. I wonder if that happens with both CPU revisions (it should.) Pretty sure I have IRQs set to trigger at that time. Very, very weird.

> And accordingly, no HV-IRQ for H=339,V=261.

This I do simulate. With the exception of your double-IRQ note, it all makes sense when you think about the PPU feeding the CPU only V/Hblank signals, and consider them at a slight delay behind the PPU.

If you want something really crazy that even I don't emulate yet ... the very first video frame when you first power on the system triggers IRQs one scanline early.

Eg power on, set IRQ to trigger at V=22, and it triggers at V=21 instead.

> Great, that'll be interesting! At first glance, it seems to be actually Z80 code (or if my guess was correct, HD64180 code; ie. extended Z80).

Wonderful. At least I have a GBZ80 core already, so I won't have to go from nothing like with ARMv3.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:14 pm 
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Don't know how far they (needed) to care about that at all. And, I wouldn't be surprised if many unlicensed cartridges (or even simple unlicensed joypads) have exceeded Nintendo's "official" ratings.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:11 am 
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nocash wrote:
Quote:
Super Famicom Box KROM1

Great, that'll be interesting! At first glance, it seems to be actually Z80 code (or if my guess was correct, HD64180 code; ie. extended Z80).
Do you still have the box disassembled? The part number of the 80pin (or so) chip would be interesting (somewhere in rear right), and same for the 28pin one (near S-ENC A), and the part numbers of the various oscillators, and hires photos/scans of the PCBs would be fantastic, and and and....
Btw. do you have any clue if (and where) it connected to a coin counter? There seem to be some spare (internal) connectors in front right of the mainboard, but on existing photos, I couldn't see any external connectors (except audio/video/power etc).


Something that does not seem to be documented about the Super Famicom Box is the keyed selector switch on the front of the console. There are more positions than just OFF and ON. In fact, I never could make sense of why OFF was the normal play mode, and ON basically blocked the screen out with some text and stopped the system.
EDIT: It acts different with a dead battery.

hmm. this also popped up on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3oQZT7vXrw

The biggest use for this switch is to show screens to get a total count for how many times each game has been played.

The switch itself is kind of wasteful in that it connects the common wire C to either 0 1 2 3 4 or 9 (does not use binary). The text overlay even complains (in japanese) if the C wire is not connected to ANY of those options after powerup. The overlay also complains if there is no controller activity for a few minutes (I never measured how long). I'm guessing the point of the message is to tell a new person to reset if they walk in on a game ending or are generally just confused.

I'm not trying to sway things one way or another, but that screw-on rectangular panel on the right side of the box has literally nothing magical behind it. There also doesn't seem to be any room to do anything with it because the monstrous game cartridges sit right behind it, along with a pretty substantial metal brace to keep the unit from being crushed by whatever TV somebody would drop on top of it.

I don't have drivers for those one-of-a-kind hexagonal bits Nintendo uses, so my abililty to take this apart is severely limited.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:02 pm 
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Good to know! I wasn't sure if it really was a "power" switch, I'll rename it to "mode" switch in my doc. Didn't expect it to have more than 2 positions. But now, that explains why it has so many wires.
If I got it right... there are 10 possible positions (?), with 6 used positions (and the other positions causing an error message). And non-binary means that position "3" would be 10 "bits" (0000001000), rather than 4bit binary (0011), right?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:41 pm 
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nocash wrote:
Quote:
Super Famicom Box KROM1

Great, that'll be interesting! At first glance, it seems to be actually Z80 code (or if my guess was correct, HD64180 code; ie. extended Z80).
Do you still have the box disassembled? The part number of the 80pin (or so) chip would be interesting (somewhere in rear right), and same for the 28pin one (near S-ENC A), and the part numbers of the various oscillators, and hires photos/scans of the PCBs would be fantastic, and and and....
Btw. do you have any clue if (and where) it connected to a coin counter? There seem to be some spare (internal) connectors in front right of the mainboard, but on existing photos, I couldn't see any external connectors (except audio/video/power etc).


Will provide pictures.
CPU is indeed HD64180 (package reads HD64180RF6X)
Optional coin mech connects on right side (see http://dforce3000.de/index.php?p=fdsingle&uid=228), your guess concerning unused interal connectors is probably correct (don't have one of these, either).


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:37 pm 
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nocash wrote:
Good to know! I wasn't sure if it really was a "power" switch, I'll rename it to "mode" switch in my doc. Didn't expect it to have more than 2 positions. But now, that explains why it has so many wires.
If I got it right... there are 10 possible positions (?), with 6 used positions (and the other positions causing an error message). And non-binary means that position "3" would be 10 "bits" (0000001000), rather than 4bit binary (0011), right?


Yeah, mostly. The sequence goes 9-0-1-2-3-4
On a normally functioning unit, you are mechanically limited to those positions (it does not go counter-clockwise past 9 to 8 or clockwise past 4 to 5). 360 degrees / 10 = 36 degrees per click. There are 7 wires going to the selector switch, with PCB labels 0 1 2 3 4 C 9

You are understanding correctly that there is only supposed to be one bit set at a time, i.e. C connects to 0.

There is one position counter-clockwise from "OFF" or 0, that corresponds with 9. When turning clockwise from 0 it only clicks up to position 4. If you completely disconnect the switch it powers up like it was in position 0 and complains about it with onscreen text.

d4s, many thanks for posting the coin counter. I was fearing some people were assuming that you dropped coins directly into the area covered up by the plate.


Dead battery, mode switch positions:
Apparently the system acts different with a functional coin cell battery. This is odd, but I think the service menu might have a way of changing how the system acts.

9 - Service Mode (Install mode)

0 - Play any game, no restrictions. There is no option 5 after selecting the game.

1 - Giant Japanese yellow text on blue background saying the equivalent of THE KEY IS ON, please turn the key OFF. (kii ga ON ni natte imasu. kii o OFF ni shite kudasai). It looks like the Super Famicom is generating this text.

2 - After selecting a game, you can now pick option 5 to Try a game (for free) for 2 minutes. Onscreen text counts down time. Warns one minute left, then when almost out of time counts down the seconds. Resets back to the menu. You can still pick option 1 and play freely, but onscreen text does not go away.

3 - Self Check. White text on a blue screen like 1.Controller....Ok, 8.RTC.....OK. Just continues to loop.

4 - Power OFF, Scared me the first time because a relay clicks. If the unit has the optional power outlet (mine does not), I think this is intended to shut off the television set.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:39 pm 
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Fine, I've added the switch info to my doc.

---

This BS-X doc from d4s, http://dforce3000.de/pub/d4s_satellaview_modem_regs.txt has some info on reading Satellaview I/O ports on real hardware. Great info, and now I am having a bunch of questions:

> reg (r/w): def description
"def" means initial value on Power-Up (and/or on Reset)?

> 2188 (r/w): ... 14 bits wide ... reading back $aa,$55.
How can it read-back 55AAh if it's only 14bit wide? Which bits are used/unused? And what are the unused bits, open-bus, or always 0, always 1?

> 2194 (r/w): $00 (4bit)
> bit0 affects bit0 of 2196
> bit2 switches satellaview access light on
> 2196 (r) : $02 bit0 alternates fast if bit 1 of 2194 is set
Okay, with 4bit you mean bit0-3? (existing software uses only that bits), so bit4-7 are always zero, not read/write-able?
Ehhhhm, which bit affects 2196.bit0? "bit0" of 2194 or "bit 1" of 2194?
LED is ON or OFF when setting 2194.bit2?
Software always writes same value to bit2+bit3 of 2196, so my guess was that both are LED related (like givining it more power when both bits set, or switching it from Red to Green on certain values or so). But now, after reading your doc, the Access-LED is solely controlled by bit2? And, just to be sure, the Power-LED isn't software controlled?

> 2195 (r) : $00
That one isn't used by existing software. On hardware it's just always reading zero?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Btw. what's the status of the Tribal Tap's 6-player mode? The "cannot have an internal state" info on http://www.neviksti.com/wiki/TribalTap didn't fully convince me (I think it would be theoretically possible) (see http://www.neviksti.com/wiki/Talk:TribalTap for some more notes). Would be nice if somebody could verify the "schematic". Especially two pins:
1) is the "IO" line (from SNES) really wired to PAL.Pin2? (IN1 would be Input-only)
2) is the "IN0'E" (data from Port6) really wired to PAL.Pin12? (OUT0 would be output-only, and thus could not input any data from joypad)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:07 pm 
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He decapped the chip and scanned it in with a microscope and you still aren't convinced?? Geez :P


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:58 pm 
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Yup!
Most of the info on the page is great, but especially the decapping part didn't convince me: As far as I understood, he basically looked at the 16L8 number in the decapped chip (?) and the conclusion that a 16L8 without "built-in" storage cannot be programmed to store data seemed wrong to me.
I am not familar with PALs, but I think the NOR-gate-flipflop idea should work (see above Talk page). Don't know if it's possible to program that PAL so that the flipflop acts like a "hidden" internal variable. Otherwise, one could program it so that the flipflop state shows up on one of the output pins (and from there it could be fed back into the chip).


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