What is too politically toxic?

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naI
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Re: What is too politically toxic?

Post by naI » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:14 pm

"Having a problem with being misgendered is politically toxic and forcing one's ideology on others." Do I have that right?

Pokun
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Re: What is too politically toxic?

Post by Pokun » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:33 pm

@naI
Got what right with what? That is not what I've been saying in case that is what you are implying.

@toggle switch
Well people sure are working hard in trying to do exactly that, trying to shame their opponent into submission among other things. While at the same time accusing their opponent for the exact same thing that they are doing themselves. Talk about hypocritical, such discussions are little but a waste of time and sweat.

People here say that using alternates pronouns is still a long way and probably no one is going to force it. But forcing people to use such pronouns is a reality in Sweden, and trying to make people who refuse to do it feel shame is also a reality.

Also I'm not going to defend every word Bregalad is going to say. He has a certain way with words, and I fully understand that that is enough to trigger people. I just wanted to point out that the attacks on him has no value in a healthy discussion and is the type of things we wants to avoid. That's what this whole thread is about after all.

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toggle switch
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Re: What is too politically toxic?

Post by toggle switch » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:43 pm

I just wanted to point out that the attacks on him has no value in a healthy discussion and
lol, nobody 'attacked' bregalad.

there were two minor comments. mine basically was saying i don't think he's a good judge of what constitutes political toxicity. nothing more, nothing less. that's hardly an attack.

the other was
Basically if it makes Bregalad uncomfortable, it's politically toxic. :roll:
bregalad is out there calling people fascist, but you're going to focus on those two statements as being unacceptable? gimme a break. calling people fascist apparently has a place in a 'healthy discussion'....

Pokun
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Re: What is too politically toxic?

Post by Pokun » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:55 pm

Well then sorry for being unfair. Calling the opponent in a discussion fascist or nazi is common in heated discussions that have gotten out of hand, and is obviously also not something that has any place in a healthy discussion.

The attack on Bregalad was personal. You might not think those where serious attacks, but if it was me I wouldn't have taken them in a good way.

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toggle switch
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Re: What is too politically toxic?

Post by toggle switch » Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:04 pm

whatever one can say about the comments regarding bregalad, one thing you can't do is change the order of events.

he called somebody a fascist, it was out of line. you may not think the responses were as measured as i do, but we can all agree that they were in response to him fulfilling godwin's law. once you start comparing people to the worst humanity has to offer, you can only accept whatever pushback you get as being in kind.

Pokun
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Re: What is too politically toxic?

Post by Pokun » Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:15 pm

Yes, I can agree to that.

93143
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Re: What is too politically toxic?

Post by 93143 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:52 pm

Bregalad objected to a particular view being enshrined as the only correct way to think. This is very clear from his posts, and the parts of other posts that he actually quoted.

Keep in mind that the view in question has in fact been imposed by law in some places (my country included) and that tepples was seriously considering making a forum rule to that effect. And even if it's not actually made a rule, it still remains true that some of the discussion here assumes a particular position is right and good and that any objection is invalid, which if nothing else certainly makes it a toxic topic as long as even one forum member disagrees and is willing to say so. (This discussion is really about two related issues...)

Perhaps the word "fascist" was a bit ill-judged, but it's fairly clear what point he was trying to emphasize. Taking offense instead of considering his point is not going to result in a productive discussion. Many of the responses to him have been snide, mocking and disingenuous; this is not warranted and more importantly not helpful.
naI wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:14 pm
"Having a problem with being misgendered is politically toxic and forcing one's ideology on others." Do I have that right?
No. The problem is the assumption underlying the term "misgendered". Forcing that assumption on others is - if not exactly straight from the pages of the Fascist Manifesto - at least an authoritarian attempt to force people to profess that which they do not believe.

It seems to me that a number of people involved in this discussion are assuming that their own views are not only correct but obvious, and that it is not necessary to seriously consider objections or even to try to understand what the objections are. If you won't take your opponent seriously, the discussion is headed nowhere useful.

If you find yourself unable to take your opponent seriously even for the sake of argument, maybe the topic being discussed is in fact "toxic" and best avoided on a retro game development message board...

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toggle switch
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Re: What is too politically toxic?

Post by toggle switch » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:14 pm

duplicate
Last edited by toggle switch on Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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toggle switch
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Re: What is too politically toxic?

Post by toggle switch » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:15 pm

Perhaps the word "fascist" was a bit ill-judged, but it's fairly clear what point he was trying to emphasize. Taking offense instead of considering his point is not going to result in a productive discussion. Many of the responses to him have been snide, mocking and disingenuous; this is not warranted and more importantly not helpful.
i love how you think it's totally cool to compare somebody to literal mass murderers, and reserve your harshest judgement for the very gentle pushback received in response to that.

totally okay to call somebody a fascist, but out of line for me to reply that i disagree with his concept of political toxicity. :roll:
Last edited by toggle switch on Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Drag
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Re: What is too politically toxic?

Post by Drag » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:18 pm

This thread's going around in a circle fixated on the usage of loaded language, and at least one occurrence of words being twisted to call someone out, so maybe we're actually not ready for discussions like this. :P

That's not to say we can't be ready, just that now there's even more to think about.

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toggle switch
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Re: What is too politically toxic?

Post by toggle switch » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:46 pm

the only reason i commented at all was to make it clear to tepples that not everybody felt that way.

i regret it. should have just pm'ed him rather than constantly have to defend my utterly milquetoast critique.

93143
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Re: What is too politically toxic?

Post by 93143 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:54 pm

I may have to post again tomorrow. I rushed out that last one, and it shows.
Last edited by 93143 on Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

tepples
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Re: What is too politically toxic?

Post by tepples » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:24 pm

When even toxicity itself proves toxic, I don't know what to say.

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Bregalad
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Re: What is too politically toxic?

Post by Bregalad » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:45 am

toggle switch wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:01 am
in response to somebody basically saying that nobody is going to enforce this type of language on you.
If you're writing using a certain language to somebody, you enforce your language on people who are supposed to read your posts. For example I prefer French language on English but I write in Enligsh here so that others can understand. If I adered to this extremely individualistic "on each their own" view, I would write all forum posts in French and say you're free to use English if you prefer.

If your gramar is reminicient of some political view or utopia, anybody, even not interested in politics nor your utopia, is forced to be constantly reminded about it just by the sight of the politically loaded newlanguage. The parallel with the 1984 book is here obvious. And yes, doing politics by changing the language is a fachist approach. I never called anybody in particular fachist, but a concept. "you" in this post refers to generic "you" not anybody in particular.

(This is my last post in this thread, I'm outta there)

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Re: What is too politically toxic?

Post by Pokun » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:43 am

Yes, but the thing is some people felt it was directed at them, and fascist and nazi are often used to anger people, so one could argue that such words should be used with care even if you think they make sense in the context. Now of course two wrongs don't make a right.

93143 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:54 pm
I may have to post again tomorrow. I rushed out that last one, and it shows.
I think you pretty much repeated what I was trying to say.

tepples wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:24 pm
When even toxicity itself proves toxic, I don't know what to say.
Haha well said. It was kind of unavoidable though, since the discussion was bound to connect to the locked thread.
But it seems to me that a lot of people are agreeing to what level of discussions becomes problematic.

Implying that your opponent's opinion is shameful, inhumane, evil, illogical (even when it isn't) or objectively wrong are all very effective weapons, and when people are fighting for a matter that has a large impact on their life they are going to use whatever tactics they can to prevail. But on a forum discussion such tactics will just clutter the forum with flame wars and is best if avoided.

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