I guess fascist could also mean "don't you see that you are wrong?" I didn't take it as offending. Although just "wrong" can be confusing if it refers to something that is "harmless/normal" to someone else. It can be also unclear which part of a sentence "wrong" was referring to (not to mention possible mis-understanding of the intended meaning of the sentence)... It's just difficult to understand what was disagreed... or what was talked about at all.
If I didn't miss some important posts, nobody has been giving examples about what is disliked about which of pronouns. There is the issue of preserving or changing language/grammar, another issue is that gender pronouns may imply associations with sex-practices. My current assumption is that male/female genders are widely accepted, and that it's only the gender neutral form being objected to by some people. Or is that already a wrong assumption on other peoples views?
Leaving gender-associated sex-practices aside: The raw language as such is allowing to say "she is a woman"
, and also to use who/whose as gender neutral form "someone who told me...
", that neutral form is used even if the gender is known, "a man who told me...
". Does anybody have objections to that kind of gendering & gender neutrality?
More controversial: "somebody emailed me (without gender info), and he/she told me about his/her..."
that is a case where additional gender neutral forms could be potentially useful (probably without violating anyones religious beliefs - please correct me if I am wrong). What I can understand (and even agree with myself) is that xe and xis
could sound unfamilar/queer/hurt someones ears, they and their
would sound more familar and easier to adopt to, the drawback would be blurring singular and plural. I don't favor either one, but I like the general idea of having a gender neutral form, And I have some troubles to see that as controversial or toxic topic... Well, unless...
- Manipulating the language could be seen as slow brain-washing directed at eroding political views. That is one concern here, right?
- A too polite language can feel like having to lick everyones feet. Is that a concern, too?
- Gender neutral pronouns would allow queer people to promote yet untold sex-practises (probably untrue because even queer people have their gender preferences when it comes to sex).
- Is there a possible compromise, like "okay, let them use their silly pronouns, but only if I may also say this-and-that"?
If it comes to forum members, usernames and pronouns may lead to potentionally disturbing assumptions on normal/weird/platonic sex-practices. Whether or not thinking about sex, I could imagine forum members doing this:
- User "Albert" uses pronoun "he"
- User "Anna" uses pronoun "she"
- User "Laura" uses Donald Duck as avatar, with pronoun "she"
- User "Larissa" uses Dagobert Duck as avatar, with pronoun "he"
- User "Lisa" uses pronoun "she" and is known to be a prominent transgender woman
- User "JustMe" uses pronoun "xe"
- User "RockyHorrorGuyFatale" uses pronoun "xe" and likes to behave a bit queer
- User "JustSomebody" prefers pronoun "them" instead of "xe"
- User "FingerCloud" didn't specify any pronoun
- User "BestCoder8bits" uses pronoun "genius"
Maybe obviously, some people (me included) would be uncomfortable with using some of those pronouns. Workarounds would be...
- Avoid sentences that require pronouns when talking about those people.
- Don't talk to those people if, for example, you think that someone who is identifying as "genius" must be an idiot.
- Don't allow people with offending gender identities to join this forum (that would be my definition of fascism).
- Insist on your right to use different gender pronouns for some - or all - of those people (my opinion: that's not very polite)
- Don't force other people to use pronouns in their sentences (I am curious: Are they really doing anything like that in sweden?)
Well, that's my best attempt to be open tolerant, not to force my opinion on other people, and to understand what other people are thinking.
I hope that I haven't offended anybody when suggesting that someone like "RockyHorrorGuyFatale" could even exist.
Bregalad wrote: ↑
Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:45 am
(This is my last post in this thread, I'm outta there)
Oh, no! I would have been really interested in understanding your views... and if we did really disagree on everything, or only a few details here or there.
toggle switch wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:59 am
LOL, omg... using the word 'fascist' it was in direct response
Yeah, well, but that has been meanwhile clarified to refer to a rhetorical "you" in general. Not a personal "you" in neither singular not plural form.
Maybe we need to invent more pronouns for that in future ; )
Uhm, and LOL can also sound a bit like "Boah, you are really a dumbass-idiot (fascist)" which is perhaps not the best way to defuse a situation.
PS. regardless of all that talk, I do also like unisex forums without gender info. Ie.unlike places like gbatemp, where they have large gender symbols as default avatars, and with an optional question mark for undeclared genders, although... that's working surprisingly well there.