It is currently Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:42 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:33 am
Posts: 3715
Location: Central Texas, USA
Quote:
Charging money for these things -- Literally half the price of a brand new game for PS3/XB360/etc -- is ... prohibitively expensive.

If it's really prohibitively expensive, then he won't sell any.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:44 pm
Posts: 449
Location: CA
Xkeeper wrote:
Oh, on that note, I noticed that Retrozone no longer sells EEPROMs or mappers. Gee, I wonder why.

If you are actually wondering, it is simply because EPROMs didn't sell. Anyone with a programmer knows where to get them, and anyone without a programmer can't use them. The "mappers" are just plain 74hc161/74hc32 chips. Has nothing to do with cost, profits, legality, ethics, etc. Just a cleaner website. All the boards, Ciclones, and MMC1 CPLD are still up. I can hit the checkbox if you really feel like buying some EPROMs tho.


Bregalad wrote:
You are getting informations, help and progamming tools on the internet by people who shared that freely and you use that to make money, which I consider dishonnest.

Guess kevtris has to go clear out all the Ciclone and CopyNES posts. Loopy has to erase his PowerPak FDS info. Any Garage Cart, Squeedo, MidiNES talk better stop now. Other information about games like NESnake, Pegs, Vegavox, etc need to be removed too. I assume the UFROM boards will now be given out free, and that SX-Flash will never be sold and all schematics/gerber files will be posted. All those made money, had help from others, and almost certainly used free software at some point.

This is a public forum, anyone can use any info to make money. If you have a problem with that, don't post. There are other people that will help with no expectations of payment, and Sivak has certainly helped others without payment.


Bregalad wrote:
I am *not* going to buy any NE$ "homebrew" games no matter what anyone says. I am interested in NESdev not NE$dev.

If you don't think his game is worth money, don't buy it. It really is that simple. No thread crapping needed. Others have no problem paying for hard work, and would like to play NES games on a NES system instead of an emulator. After all running code on actual systems is how the last 2 NES "bugs" have been found.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Posts: 10068
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
Bregalad, just wait until the time when daddy won't be paying your bills and giving you a roof to live under and you'll realize that there isn't much time to work on hobbyist projects, and if we can make a few bucks out of our work it certainly helps.

If/when I finish a game, I'll probably try to sell it in a nice cart with good artwork, manual and all that shit for the people who really care, but I will probably distribute the ROM also, as these things get distributed anyway. People who care about that special extra and want to support you will buy it, but fighting piracy is pointless, specially when we are pirates as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:33 am
Posts: 3715
Location: Central Texas, USA
Money exchange is similar to idea sharing, where the exchange makes all parties better off than before. Bunnyboy and kevtris sell NES development-related items. The money goes to fund further projects of theirs, some related to the NES. The hardware sold is then used by people who freely share their findings and creations made with its help. This benefits everyone. Eliminating hardware exchange would reduce people here to giving it out for free, an unsustainable activity for almost anyone. If and when NES development becomes so active that there are lots of people advertising things and disrupting the atmosphere here, things can be done to address it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 7235
Location: Chexbres, VD, Switzerland
Quote:
If/when I finish a game, I'll probably try to sell it in a nice cart with good artwork, manual and all that shit for the people who really care, but I will probably distribute the ROM also, as these things get distributed anyway. People who care about that special extra and want to support you will buy it, but fighting piracy is pointless, specially when we are pirates as well

I fully agree with that, and that's pretty much what I said all allong, if you distribute the ROM freely.
Quote:
If you don't think his game is worth money, don't buy it. It really is that simple. No thread crapping needed. Others have no problem paying for hard work, and would like to play NES games on a NES system instead of an emulator. After all running code on actual systems is how the last 2 NES "bugs" have been found.

All right, but again as long as you release the game as both a ROM and an actual cartridge, I see no problem. It it is cartridge only it really does not make sense I think, as I don't think something I can't try is worth the money.

Quote:
Guess kevtris has to go clear out all the Ciclone and CopyNES posts. Loopy has to erase his PowerPak FDS info. Any Garage Cart, Squeedo, MidiNES talk better stop now. Other information about games like NESnake, Pegs, Vegavox, etc need to be removed too. I assume the UFROM boards will now be given out free, and that SX-Flash will never be sold and all schematics/gerber files will be posted. All those made money, had help from others, and almost certainly used free software at some point.

I'm not sure what you mean here. In case you're wondering, my SX-Flash is not working at all currently and I don't know if it ever will. I did never intent to sell it or anything, on the countrary I bought it for personal use (along with componants that goes with it) and wasted quite some money in doing that.

At least it filled into the case if you ignore the fact it is way too thick. I could share all gerber files and shematics if someone wants, but I don't have the programm to read them any longer so this is a bit confusing to me. I still have the files tough, so if anyone has orcad and are actually asking I see no problem. I enjoyed doing these actually, so I wouldn't mind sharing.[/quote]

_________________
Life is complex: it has both real and imaginary components.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:44 pm
Posts: 449
Location: CA
Bregalad wrote:
All right, but again as long as you release the game as both a ROM and an actual cartridge, I see no problem. It it is cartridge only it really does not make sense I think, as I don't think something I can't try is worth the money.

He said there will be a demo ROM, so you can try it before you buy it, then what's the problem? Still think you deserve the full thing for free just because its NES? That somehow makes his effort worthless?


Bregalad wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean here.

Except for your board those are all commercial products, advertised here, sold for money. I absolutely guarantee kevtris made more profit from his Ciclones than Sivak has from all his games. Where were you to complain about advertising when he posted how to buy them? You even posted in the UFROM thread right after the price list. Are you only bitching about advertising now because you might actually want Sivak's game? Everything else is fine to charge for, but $ivak i$ $crewing you becau$e he want$ a very $mall amount of ca$h?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 7235
Location: Chexbres, VD, Switzerland
bunnyboy wrote:
He said there will be a demo ROM, so you can try it before you buy it, then what's the problem?

Oh it's already much better but it's still not the full game.
Quote:
That somehow makes his effort worthless?

Not worth money *is not the same as* worthless.
Quote:
Except for your board those are all commercial products, advertised here, sold for money. I absolutely guarantee kevtris made more profit from his Ciclones than Sivak has from all his games. Where were you to complain about advertising when he posted how to buy them? You even posted in the UFROM thread right after the price list. Are you only bitching about advertising now because you might actually want Sivak's game? Everything else is fine to charge for, but $ivak i$ $crewing you becau$e he want$ a very $mall amount of ca$h?

Well, I don't care about any of those products, because they are not needed at all do develop games for the NES or any other consoles. I wish the CIC would never have been reverse-engineered tough, as there would never have been all this money thing. But well I'll deal with facts and stop complaining if I have to.
In fact I don't care much about Sivak's game more than anyonther, it's just that recently many people have evoqued money related to NESdev when it wasn't the case before, and this highly irritates me.

Sivak's game doesn't really look really good anyway. He found nothing else than loads of spikes to have difficulty, the hero really looks bland and not cool at all, and the jump seems to be linear instead of parabolic which sounds awfull. Anyway I shouldn't say that because he'll fix those problems and make more money because more peolpe will like the demo if it does looks good due to my advice, something I don't want to happen.

If at least Sivak would have come to the board as an experienced programmers for years, I could easily have not been bothered about that. But he came unable to write a "hello world" programm less than 2 years ago, and now he wants to sell games to us who naively gave him advice ! Kevtris did not come on the board asking what a resistor is as far as I recall.

_________________
Life is complex: it has both real and imaginary components.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:49 pm
Posts: 968
Ok man thats just weak. Dissing someones game just cause your losing an argument is just weak. Period

edit: dont forget kev probably used info gathered in that one thread. I know he found the debug mode himself but stil.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:45 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:33 am
Posts: 3715
Location: Central Texas, USA
Bregalad wrote:
If at least Sivak would have come to the board as an experienced programmers for years, I could easily have not been bothered about that. But he came unable to write a "hello world" programm less than 2 years ago, and now he wants to sell games to us who naively gave him advice !

Wow, my opinion of you just dropped to zero. I, for one, welcome anyone new who has a thing or two to show US.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 7235
Location: Chexbres, VD, Switzerland
Oh allright it doesn't look really bad else I wouldn't have bothred all that way along. Just that it doesn't look awesomely perfectly good enough to be a real purchase anyway.

And if your opinion of my decrased as I said that, my opinion of all of you is deacreasing as you're defending guys who gather money instead of guy who puts actual tought in making games. Money money money, oh come on let's talk about something else or it will be civil war. Especially if I'm arround, which is not a good thing.

_________________
Life is complex: it has both real and imaginary components.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:49 pm
Posts: 968
Sure you've put "alot of thought" into your games. And where can I buy/find/download these?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:44 pm
Posts: 449
Location: CA
Bregalad wrote:
Well, I don't care about any of those products, because they are not needed at all do develop games for the NES or any other consoles.

Sivak's game is not needed to develop games, so why is it now a problem? Why is him selling a cart for ~$30 a problem, when that is almost exactly the price memblers was charging for a completed UFROM cart? Want to bet that the next Garage Cart will be about the same price, and you won't complain that it isn't free?


Bregalad wrote:
I wish the CIC would never have been reverse-engineered tough, as there would never have been all this money thing.
But well I'll deal with facts and stop complaining if I have to.

Are you ignoring the facts that reproductions were made (for profit!) for 10 years, and hundreds of midiNES carts were sold (for profit!) before the CIC was reverse engineered? Or that homebrew was already being sold on carts like the Garage Cart? Ciclone just means original carts don't need to be destroyed, not that suddenly there's massive profits.


Bregalad wrote:
In fact I don't care much about Sivak's game more than anyonther, it's just that recently many people have evoqued money related to NESdev when it wasn't the case before, and this highly irritates me.

There were always products being sold, you just didn't care about them enough to complain. Money certainly isn't stopping anything new from happening, but has definitely created many new things that you can safely continue ignoring if you don't care about the physical hardware.


Bregalad wrote:
If at least Sivak would have come to the board as an experienced programmers for years, I could easily have not been bothered about that.

And now that he is experienced, with more finished projects than most people here, he still has to give away everything free? Even though you say you aren't even interested and it is a bad game, if he makes $1/hr its horrible? How many years of NES experience are required before something can be sold? He doesn't yet have a software engineering degree, is that also needed?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 7235
Location: Chexbres, VD, Switzerland
Quote:
Sivak's game is not needed to develop games, so why is it now a problem? Why is him selling a cart for ~$30 a problem, when that is almost exactly the price memblers was charging for a completed UFROM cart? Want to bet that the next Garage Cart will be about the same price, and you won't complain that it isn't free?

Well, you got the point it's not really a problem. I would not bother paying for hardware if I were able to. But I'm really bothered that people are wanting to make non-freeware here. It's like I could say :
"0001010111010101011111101001010100110".
Wow now the string what I wrote about cost $10k. How can you proof that is wrong ? This is proprietary software and all.

If they want to do paying software I guess that's not really my problem, but the annoyance really comes when the come to show off in a thead that was nothing but blatant advertising.
If it would be like :
"hey I'm going to sell a game blah blah" I just wouldn't have bothered.

Here it was more like :
"Look at what I did that is great huh ?"
"Yeah it looks cool"
"Well then you will have to pay to play that HAHAHAHAHA"

And that really annoyed and angried me. It looks like pure provocation from someone who took 2 years to write some games to act like that in front of people like me and other people on this board too who are getting their much more complete projects to progress slowly for more than 4 years.

Anyway it's not that much a big deal, I'm not interested at all in that and if other people are it's noe of my buisne$$. Simply, it really frustrates me how blatant the advertising is and the fact people think they can just get money by having fun in coding games because a few people in the world are actually professional game developpers and they think they are one of them. I don't think I'm able to be like one of them, or if I am, I am about 20 years late :wink:

On a last note, is releasing a game that is not ESRB or PEGI licenced commercially legal at all ? I highly doubt that.

EDIT : And I don't think there has been any homebrew game that was exclusively commercial yet. This should be the very first I guess, or I missed somthing (and I don't care anyway). The garage cart was a compilation of games that could be downloaded for free.

_________________
Life is complex: it has both real and imaginary components.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:09 am
Posts: 500
Location: Indianapolis
I figure I should weigh in here since I've written and sold a game, and have worked on most of the front AND back end of homebrew stuff for over a decade... going on 13 or so years now.

I think sivak has all the right in the world to do what he wants with his game. He's the one that has invested countless hours writing it, shouldn't he get a say in how it's used or released? Sure it seems like a tease to not release a ROM, but that's his choice and his alone.

Writing homebrew games is something you do for fun, and if you can make a few bucks off it, cool. The amount of money he'll make will maybe amount to 20 cents an hour or so if he's lucky. This definitely isn't a business you'll make a killing in. If he wants to make a few hundred bucks (if he's lucky) that's cool. I bet he will use the money and plow it back into NES development, buying tools or something like that to help in the effort.

I admire his work; that financial incentive seems to be good enough to keep him producing games. I've seen almost all other homebrew projects grind to a halt 'cause the author got tired or busy or something. I am no exception :-)

I used the few bucks I made selling ciclones and plowed it back in, buying carts to RE, chips and tools to help in my hobby. I definitely don't do stuff in the hobby to make money to live off of, and almost every bit I make is plowed back in 100% to advance my knowledge and hobby by buying supplies, tools, books, software, etc. Reverse engineering stuff is very costly- you need super expensive tools and equipment, long hours, and a supply of the things to reverse engineer.

SO that's my take on it.

As for the CIC reverse engineering, it wasn't just me. Don't forget everyone else that contributed to it. I just spent 3 or 4 weeks of 4-8 hours a day helping that and then writing the code for the CIClone.

All the information needed to produce a similar CIC clone device is out there now, and theoretically someone could come up with one on their own. I just had the skillz and tools and patience/perserverence to make it a reality. I was glad to do it, too. It gives people a way to make cartridges now without having to rip up existing games, which should bring the cost down on homebrews because carts no longer have to be procured, stripped, and/or modified.

_________________
/* this is a comment */


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:44 pm
Posts: 449
Location: CA
Bregalad wrote:
It looks like pure provocation from someone who took 2 years to write some games to act like that in front of people like me and other people on this board too who are getting their much more complete projects to progress slowly for more than 4 years

So if he worked slower, it would be better for you? Suddenly its ok if he spends the next 5 years on it instead of working continuously?


Bregalad wrote:
Simply, it really frustrates me how blatant the advertising is and the fact people think they can just get money by having fun in coding games because a few people in the world are actually professional game developpers and they think they are one of them.

Once again, how is that different from every other product on here. 20+ pages of CIC dev work, but HAHA you have to BUY a Ciclone! Its just 0s and 1s, made with free MPLAB software. How many people complained?


Bregalad wrote:
On a last note, is releasing a game that is not ESRB or PEGI licenced commercially legal at all ? I highly doubt that.

Both entirely voluntary.


Bregalad wrote:
EDIT : And I don't think there has been any homebrew game that was exclusively commercial yet. This should be the very first I guess, or I missed somthing (and I don't care anyway).

You missed the (at least) 8 that have already been done. Glider, Chunkout 2, Sudoku 2007, Mystic Pillars, Super NeSnake 2, Geminim, Siamond, Tic-Tac XO.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group