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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:13 am 
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@kevtris : Yeah this is really the good mentality. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like Sivak and his team have this good mentality. They come doing blatant advertising and this is not welcome.

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You missed the (at least) 8 that have already been done. Glider, Chunkout 2, Sudoku 2007, Mystic Pillars, Super NeSnake 2, Geminim, Siamond, Tic-Tac XO.

Oh my god you are right. I never noticed that ! Altough NESnake 2 has (thanks god !!) been released for free and is yet by very very very far the best NES homebrew ever I admire Matrix for his really great game and incredible music. He's really a model to follow when it comes to homebrewing. He did quality instead of quantity, just like I'm trying to do right now. It seems like Sivak and his team are really privileging quantity instead of quality.
Anyway let's stop taking about that because it annoys me it is nonsense and after all Sivak and his team does whathever they want, altough the tricky advertising really god me really mad. Anyway I couldn't care less as as people won't be able to play the game, nobody is crazy enough to pay about $30 to play Tic-tac too when you can do it with paper or download a free version for the SNES that does feature music.

About the PEGI or ESRB thing I will make another thread as it is not related to that.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:01 am 
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Bregalad, maybe I missed something that Sivak did here that really crossed the line, and that would explain all your harsh underhanded messages towards him. Please point me to the evidence; I want to become informed!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:30 am 
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Bregalad wrote:
They come doing blatant advertising and this is not welcome.

Yet again, how is this different from the advertising of every other product here? Why is it only Sivak's game that you bitch about, and not all the other products that sell more and make more profit?



Bregalad wrote:
Altough NESnake 2 has (thanks god !!) been released for free

Super NeSnake 2 has not been released free. AFAIK it will also be on Garage Cart 2, which will not be free but will hopefully be blatantly advertised here.


Bregalad wrote:
and is yet by very very very far the best NES homebrew ever I admire Matrix for his really great game and incredible music.

Yet you wouldn't even consider paying under $30 to have a NES cart of the greatest homebrew ever, just because you feel you are entitled to get it free? Nobody is crazy enough to pay real money for a snake game when I can just get one free for my phone anyways.


Bregalad wrote:
Sivak and his team

His amazing team of super mutant professional game programmers? As far as I know he is just one guy with some spare time... Who else is on this dream team of corporate greed?


Bregalad wrote:
are really privileging quantity instead of quality.

Then don't buy it. Done. Nobody is forcing you to, and you can safely ignore it just like all the other commercial products here you don't care about.

I know you haven't been paying attention to homebrew at all, but especially his quality is going up very fast. (And this is for everyone) The difference with Sivak is he actually completes one project before starting on another more challenging project, something I wish more homebrewers would do. Instead of spending many years to never finish their first massive game, he started off with a couple easy ones and is now into medium difficulty much faster. Of course Neotoxin is a more complicated game than Sivak's current platformer, but if it never gets finished it isn't comparable. Maybe his next game will be that level and he will know what it takes to complete it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:41 am 
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Bregalad, maybe I missed something that Sivak did here that really crossed the line, and that would explain all your harsh underhanded messages towards him. Please point me to the evidence; I want to become informed!

Oh come on I just say I don't agree with the policy of someone and they immediately say I'm harsh.
You'd want to check the end of the other thread before the split, it get you informed.

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Yet again, how is this different from the advertising of every other product here? Why is it only Sivak's game that you bitch about, and not all the other products that sell more and make more profit?

What other material are you talking about ? The powerpak was never supposed to be free, nor did the garage cart or anything like that. Again when you pay for material you actually get some plastic and silicium, so of course it is worth some money and is impossible to get for free.

There is the older sivak games but as far as I can tell they were never advertised here which is a good thing (or if they was I completely missed that).
Then there is the CIClone, which I'm sure that I complained about the source not being available. The author promised to release it at a later time so I stopped complaining, after all it was a hard work the guy has done and required expensive material. I can't think of any other "products" you could tell.
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Super NeSnake 2 has not been released free. AFAIK it will also be on Garage Cart 2, which will not be free but will hopefully be blatantly advertised here.

Hopefully not here.

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His amazing team of super mutant professional game programmers? As far as I know he is just one guy with some spare time... Who else is on this dream team of corporate greed?

Hmm there is no team ? For some reason I was sure they were. There were other guys defending the fact the game was commercial much more aggressively than what sivak did, and I'm mad at them more than at sivak. It would seem even weirder if they are not with him and are not sharing the money at all. Especially the one who did the last post before the split, you should see who I'm talking about.
But I refuse to be angry against some particular on the board anyway else things will really go in a bad way and I don't want that to happen.

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I know you haven't been paying attention to homebrew at all

My, my, my, you couldn't be more wrong. My activeness on the board seems to prove otherwise ! I am interested in other prople's project and like to share ideas whith them in order to help eachother to come with better homebrew games. I would probably have done very crappy games without beneficting of the greater programming experience of people here.

I just haven't payed attetion to cash or anything that is not downloadable for free, which is completely different.

Quote:
The difference with Sivak is he actually completes one project before starting on another more challenging project, something I wish more homebrewers would do. Instead of spending many years to never finish their first massive game, he started off with a couple easy ones and is now into medium difficulty much faster. Of course Neotoxin is a more complicated game than Sivak's current platformer, but if it never gets finished it isn't comparable. Maybe his next game will be that level and he will know what it takes to complete it.

I guess you get a good point here. It's true that not many project have got finished, exept the awesome NESnake2. Maybe Sivak have or will release awesome projects, but who knowns as nobody will be able to play them, or only people living in America or being able to have a paypal account will be able to. So maybe he desserves admiration, maybe not, I will probably never know unless he changes his policy.

I was supposed to be doing a heavy complex RPG as my first object, but obviously it just wasn't possible :cry:
So I decided to make a simpler linear game that has a very simple story and I am close to getting something really great done I think, but I need much more levels and enemies. The harder part by far is dealing with enemie's AI, something not too simple nor too complex, and coming with creative ideas for bosses.

As for simpler projects, I personally wouldn't have spent years to clone simple games because it's probably not as fun and less ambitious, altough you are most likely to get what you wanted in short delays. You'd want to add your own ideas to improve the thing. For example NESnake 2 is a prefect example of this : It takes the simple Snake game you could play on a phone, but improved it in a way it makes it unique with cool graphics, levels and *awesome* music. If Tic-Tac-Toe by Sivak is improved in such a way or not I will never be able to know, so I can't congratulate him not be harsh with him.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:03 am 
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Hehe I guess you were talking about me. Siv has no team. Anyway what do you mean with the "powerpak was never supposed to be free" thats a shitty argument....siv's game never was meant to be free either.

edit: iirc tic tac toe was not sivaks could be wrong.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:19 am 
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bunnyboy wrote:
The difference with Sivak is he actually completes one project before starting on another more challenging project, something I wish more homebrewers would do. Instead of spending many years to never finish their first massive game, he started off with a couple easy ones and is now into medium difficulty much faster.

In other words, "Real artists ship."

Could anyone point me to Sivak's blatant advertising? I still haven't found anything.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:02 pm 
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kevtris wrote:
I used the few bucks I made selling ciclones and plowed it back in, buying carts to RE, chips and tools to help in my hobby. I definitely don't do stuff in the hobby to make money to live off of, and almost every bit I make is plowed back in 100% to advance my knowledge and hobby by buying supplies, tools, books, software, etc.

That sounds a lot like a not-for-profit organization. investing the profit (called "surplus") into expansion of its services.

bunnyboy wrote:
Nobody is crazy enough to pay real money for a snake game when I can just get one free for my phone anyways.

Nobody pays for Snake? I'm sure Athena (Wit's), Midway and Disney (Tron), and even Konami (METALGEARSOLID4) would disagree ;-)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:52 pm 
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Nobody pays for Snake? I'm sure Athena (Wit's), Midway and Disney (Tron), and even Konami (METALGEARSOLID4) would disagree Wink

What about Rare (Battletoads) ?
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That sounds a lot like a not-for-profit organization. investing the profit (called "surplus") into expansion of its services.

Yes and this is a good thing in my opinion.
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Hehe I guess you were talking about me. Siv has no team. Anyway what do you mean with the "powerpak was never supposed to be free" thats a shitty argument....siv's game never was meant to be free either.

No, the powerpack was never supposed to be free because it's not a game but a piece of hardware.

When Sivak posted the video I really assumed the game was free of course. There would have been no reason for it not to be.
But then the guys come say "ohhh what a great shame you'll have to buy it instead" which I call a blatant advertising. If they would have say the game was commercial straight away I wouldn't even have wated the video and this wouldn't have bothered me at all.
This really got me mad, as you noticed. Now that I've seen that I can belive that, before I just couldn't. Let's pass this now please. I don't want this thread to continue forever, as there is no point in doing that.

I really couldn't think someone would have such a badass mentality to sell games they "homebrew" without anyone being able to play a ROM first. Again I do not bother anyone selling games and making money if the ROM is also available, as this makes much more sense in my opinion.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:04 pm 
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So you basicly admit that you just got your underwear too tight cause someone showed you a ferarri you thought you were getting for free and then said: "nope you gotta pay for it"


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:21 pm 
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Holy crap what a silly discussion this is! The ROM *will* be available to anyone with a Torrent program. As people have said, no one is forcing you to buy the game or support him monetarily in any way. Others will, and I can't see your problem with that. (yes you've given explanations, but I think I speak for most people here when I say they sound ridiculous)

If obtaining knowledge for free disqualified you from making money off it we wouldn't have had any games to begin with. After all, primary education is free in most countries, and every program needs some basic math to tick.

The only issue I have with Sivak's "blatant advertising" is the "pirates against piracy" mentality he displayed, but that's probably a topic for a different thread.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:02 pm 
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Bananmos wrote:
Holy crap what a silly discussion this is! The ROM *will* be available to anyone with a Torrent program. As people have said, no one is forcing you to buy the game or support him monetarily in any way. Others will, and I can't see your problem with that. (yes you've given explanations, but I think I speak for most people here when I say they sound ridiculous)

If obtaining knowledge for free disqualified you from making money off it we wouldn't have had any games to begin with. After all, primary education is free in most countries, and every program needs some basic math to tick.

The only issue I have with Sivak's "blatant advertising" is the "pirates against piracy" mentality he displayed, but that's probably a topic for a different thread.


Agreed. Pretty much anything you'll find yourself able to back up :wink: . I mean, even books are obtainable if you know where to go. There's pretty much no way to avoid piracy, unless a PC is incapable of viewing/running the material. For example, a PS3 game is probably hard to pirate at this point because well, a PS3 game requires a real PS3 to run (I think at least, otherwise your computer is being strangled to death by the amount of crap it has to do).


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:18 pm 
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Celius wrote:
There's pretty much no way to avoid piracy, unless a PC is incapable of viewing/running the material.

To play a 3- or 4-player game, you need a sufficiently large monitor that four bodies can fit around. Most monitors connected to PCs aren't nearly big enough for that, and PC games tend to work around this by acting like handhelds, running separate copies of the game on separate computers on a LAN. So in order to pirate a game that uses the Four Score hub, you need either an NES and a PowerPak, or an SDTV and a scan converter (which translates VGA signals into composite) in the same room as the PC, or an HDTV in the same room as a PC.

Quote:
For example, a PS3 game is probably hard to pirate at this point because well, a PS3 game requires a real PS3 to run (I think at least, otherwise your computer is being strangled to death by the amount of crap it has to do).

In the PS2 days, a PS2 game needed a PS2 to run, but people managed to mod their PS2s to run games from DVD-R media.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:44 pm 
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Well I guess I mean that it's pretty much impossible to avoid piracy of the torrent kind unless you really just can't use it without owning a legitimate copy. For example, a trombone can't be torrented (yeah yeah, there's midi crap, but whatever), but something like a NES game is pretty much completely vulnerable to piracy. That was pretty much my only point (well, Bananmos's point kind of).

But most PCs aren't powerful enough to emulate PS3 games, I don't think. It may be possible to burn PS3 games onto DVDs, but it probably won't be possible to just emulate them.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:57 am 
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But most PCs aren't powerful enough to emulate PS3 games, I don't think. It may be possible to burn PS3 games onto DVDs, but it probably won't be possible to just emulate them.

As far I know PS3 games are on a blu-ray support which has higher capacity than DVDs, so you'd have to wait a long while until burnable blue-rays come out. Maybe some smaller games runs on DVD tough I have no idea. I only saw a real PS3 once in a shop, and it was something like $480 used, which make me laugh, as only the PS2 was that expensive new.

But yeah it sounds like the PS3 has really really the top of hi-tech in it, and since you need hardware at least 10 times more powerfull to get emulation with decent speed and mid-decent accuracy, we would probably want to wait a really long time before we get PC able to emulate the PC3 for a decent price. But there is chances that this will happen someday, tough, seeing the high rate at which electronics evolves.

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In the PS2 days, a PS2 game needed a PS2 to run, but people managed to mod their PS2s to run games from DVD-R media.

We're still in the PS2 days, and I don't know any decent emulator that is able to play a PS2 game I have insertede in my DVD reader like PS1 emulators does. Even if there was one you'd probably need a very powerfull PC and a very powerfull graphic card in order to do that.

Quote:
Holy crap what a silly discussion this is! The ROM *will* be available to anyone with a Torrent program. As people have said, no one is forcing you to buy the game or support him monetarily in any way. Others will, and I can't see your problem with that. (yes you've given explanations, but I think I speak for most people here when I say they sound ridiculous)

You are probably right. Since I will be able to download the ROM I don't really care, I have no reason to be frustrated so you are right, we'll just wait a little longer to play it.
Techinically there is probably ways you could make a game hard to dump : Using non-standard memory stockage (not 27Cxxx EPROMs), using a weird mapper that does not exist in iNES, having a PIC microcontroller that would lock the CE of the chip exepts on some conditions who are only met on a real NES, or stuff like that. Anyway it would be worthless as it would be perfectly possible to pirate and all.[/quote]

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:33 am 
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((I originally posted this in the wrong thread, grrr... ;-) ))


First, I appreciate the members of the nesdev community taking our policies seriously. Please read the below thoroughly, as it should shed some light on things. Summary: things are different now, and I really should update our policies page to reflect that. I will try to do that within the next few days, but my health these days isn't so great (for those who know me personally, my blog documents the series of problem I've been having).

For many years, we've taken a "you're not allowed to sell stuff using your account" approach, simply because at the time we were a 501(c)3 organisation (non-profit), which meant we would've had to involve ourselves directly with every form of financial transaction our users had (gotta track all of it somehow, since they had to be claimed as charitable donations) -- I didn't want to deal with that (I'd rather just file our IRS forms with what we received in donations). All of this was done while I was still living in Oregon, by the way.

501(c)3 status is a lot of work, mainly intended for organisations which have a number of employees. Parodius only has 3 people -- myself, our co-admin who's been busy with real life since getting married + having a kid, and another co-admin who's also our datacentre guy. I'm the founder/owner, and I'm the one responsible for all changes and maintenances. Everything goes through me, more or less. It's my baby.

Well, things in recent years have changed. First, I (and Parodius as a whole) now live in California. I never filed an update to inform the government that we had relocated. NPO status isn't something you have to "renew" in Oregon or California, but you do have to periodically keep in touch with the state so that they know you're exempt, where you are, etc... I haven't done that in 4 or 5 years at least, and I'm absolutely certain that status has been inadvertently revoked by now.

Secondly, and this is probably going to surprise some folks: there are in fact Parodius users who are selling things from their websites. For example, the band Joy Electric (who we host) has direct PayPal shopping cart links for their T-shirts, CDs, and other stuff. Let me make this crystal clear:

I'm absolutely 100% cool with that, even though it's a direct violation of our current policies.

We (Parodius) get absolutely zero returns from purchases made through their site. Again: I'm 100% okay with that. JE is somewhat of an independent band, although they have their own label, but occasionally use Tooth & Nail (who is quite mainstream). I know the band member(s) and his wife. There's an personal relationship there, not a commercial one. Meaning: the goal isn't "to make tons of money".

Another example: NESWorld has a buy/sale/trade section of their forum, where financial transactions do in fact happen (but they use Paypal or money orders or whatever). Parodius bandwidth is being used to make those sales known, duh, but the point of NESWorld isn't to make money, obviously.

The main point:

I really don't want Parodius-hosted sites to become commercially-oriented in the sense that a hosted site is dedicated to selling/advertising software/music/games/etc.. Sites of that nature I do not want to host, which is also why I don't allow banners/etc. -- because I don't want the Parodius network to be associated with things that have plagued the Web and made it an annoying place to be.

nesdev.com is not a commercially-oriented site in any way, so if Memblers or others decided one day "Hey! Let's make some nesdev T-shirts and mugs and sell them!", or "Let's make a nesdev PCB and sell it through the site!", I'd be completely cool with that.

The same goes for forum visitors wanting to sell stuff they've developed. If some guy shows up and says "hey, I made this game, please check it out, I want to make it into a cart and sell it" and decides to put links to it in his forum post, and the forum mods/admins are cool with it, then I am too.

Meaning: I'm cool with a nesdev forum regular trying to sell something he made on cart, or get proceeds going for something like making a dev PCB en masse. I'm NOT cool with the nesdev site being turned solely into a "click here to buy our dev PCBs!" site.

There's some morality involved in the whole thing, and it's really hard to document that (in the Policies page) in a way that makes sense. Does all of this make sense to people? Am I being reasonable?

So if the forum mods/admins want to make a buy/trade/sell forum section, that would probably work best. I know it works for the NESWorld guys, and I'm cool with it.

Hope that clears things up...?

EDIT: I've updated our Policies page to reflect the above.


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