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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:06 am 
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I just finished to "cut/paste" (I learned about the export option at almost 70% done.. Doh!) all the reference of the previous wiki, ines mapper id info and general programming sample not included.

The link is here: http://wiki.nesdev.com

I want your comment on the new layout since I changed the way things are organized a little bit. I hope to change the content more once I can figure out a proper layout to make it more user friendly.

Now I'm exhausted after moving the section around so I will go sleep. zzz...


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:26 am 
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This is good work thanks for doing that !

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:53 am 
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awesome! once you finish, is the plan to just let everyone have free reign and write anything NESdev related they can think of on there?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:38 pm 
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There should be some standards so that information can be easily understood. I'm not sure if I used the correct word "standards", but what I mean is, for example:

- are we talking NTSC or PAL?
- if a specific scanline is mentioned, is that with vblank thought of as before or after the visible frame?

something else: would it be worthwhile to reformat some of the text files on the nesdev main page into the wiki? Not necessarily things like marat's doc, but Brad Taylor's CPU/PPU documents. The cpu page currently (or at least the last time I looked) just had a link to an opcode matrix and a pinout. To make a long story short (too late?), moving some of the longer plain text stuff to a web format (wiki) would be better especially so one doesn't need to find the right encoding or font to see charts and stuff.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:14 pm 
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Hangin10 wrote:
- are we talking NTSC or PAL?

NTSC unless otherwise specified. Here's my reasoning: The Famicom was always NTSC, and the RGB systems (Vs. Unisystem and PlayChoice) used NTSC timing. And in Europe home computers (C64, Spectrum, Amiga, ST) stole a lot of the market share that would have otherwise gone to the NES.

Quote:
- if a specific scanline is mentioned, is that with vblank thought of as before or after the visible frame?

Pre-render is "line -1", and post-render is "line 240".


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:11 pm 
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Bregalad wrote:
This is good work thanks for doing that !


You're welcome. It was hell but someone had to do it :) Most links are working. Some need to be fixed because some article name changed. I will try to fix as soon as I can.

MetalSlime wrote:
awesome! once you finish, is the plan to just let everyone have free reign and write anything NESdev related they can think of on there?


It is technically finished, we can start to add content anytime. As long as it's nesdev related, I don't see any issue. Any information is good information, if people don't agree they will update it or comment about it. We just have to make sure that the new content is organized when possible. If is a code sample, it should be in the getting started section (which I need to start building an example of the structure inside).

The next step is to improve the current content. That will take more time but I will try.

Hangin10 wrote:
There should be some standards so that information can be easily understood.


I totally agree. This is one point to make the wiki more user friendly and not just for the "ones that already know".

So what we have to do is to define the assumption for the user. For example, in the main page we could say that the content refer to NTSC machine unless otherwise noted. All assumption should be documented.

Hangin10 wrote:
something else: would it be worthwhile to reformat some of the text files on the nesdev main page into the wiki?


Yes, I was thinking about that already. I hate the fact that I cannot search when many of the content is in outside links. What doesn't exit in the wiki that has value and , the most important point, is still accurate (since many docs are maybe not) must be inserted in the wiki. Then, a link to the original content could be inserted at the end of the page to say that is refer to this doc. If it just a snippet like a diagram for a chip, it may not be required.

Hangin10 wrote:
To make a long story short (too late?), moving some of the longer plain text stuff to a web format (wiki) would be better especially so one doesn't need to find the right encoding or font to see charts and stuff.


I didn't think about the encoding, that's a valid point. Yes we can do that.

tepples wrote:
Here's my reasoning: The Famicom was always NTSC, and the RGB systems (Vs. Unisystem and PlayChoice) used NTSC timing. And in Europe home computers (C64, Spectrum, Amiga, ST) stole a lot of the market share that would have otherwise gone to the NES.


I see your point but not everyone know. Some people come to nes dev and doesn't have that background. By clarifying the assumption at the beginning, which is only a few line of text or a specific section that can explain all assumption if there is too many or explained at page directly, you already make the learning curve less steep and make it more user friendly. It the kind of small details that your user will always appreciate.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:22 pm 
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nice job :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:42 pm 
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For the remaining content, I decided to import it since I don't know yet how to organize it (tutorial in general).

So the wiki transfer is done. Only thing left is a logo. From the current structure I started, people can start giving their opinion about what they like (or don't) about it.

I did one small "doh" when I was tired yesterday. For some reason, I removed the category for a few articles (mailly mappers) because I didn't like the fact that mappers and board were mixed together (they're not the same thing). But now I realize that if I end up from a search engine on a specific mapper page, I don't know how to go back to the main category. I will try to find a way to fix that. Either the word mapper will be highlighted and you can go back to the mapper page or adding some category for specific group only. But not all page were organized that way so actually I found one issue that affect many pages (i.e. how to go back to the main topic, if any).

But still, those are minor details and can be corrected soon.

Welcome to the new home of the nesdev wiki. If you have any issue with the wiki, there are 3 admins: Tepples, Memblers and me. This way, if for some reason something goes wrong with it and I'm not available, other admin can proceed forward.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:15 pm 
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Banshaku wrote:
Welcome to the new home of the nesdev wiki. If you have any issue with the wiki, there are 3 admins: Tepples, Memblers and me. This way, if for some reason something goes wrong with it and I'm not available, other admin can proceed forward.


...and folks can always nag me if they have other problems that are more pressing or server-related.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:10 am 
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First, I made a quick logo based on the nesdev one, to keep the site identity. Then I fixed a few of the category that I removed.

Now here something new that I wanted for a long time: a local html copy of the site is available here. For now, this is an experimental dump since the extension doesn't work 100%.. I had to fix the layout by end but it seems to work. Some people may be annoyed that I compressed it in 7z but if I did with zip file.. Instead of 200k it was 1 meg!..

Page without links will be missing since you don't have access to the specials pages. Once we put all the article together, we could do a dump once in a while, unless nobody is interested but I would be surprised.

If everyone could test the local copy and found what is wrong, tell me what they like or not, I would really appreciate it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:06 am 
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local copy seems to work fine for me. The top and side menus don't work, but I don't think they are supposed to.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:42 am 
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MetalSlime wrote:
local copy seems to work fine for me. The top and side menus don't work, but I don't think they are supposed to.


Yes, this is correct, they will not work because either they don't have content or refer to a special section of the wiki. Does it seems useful in it current state?

Now the next step it to check which document from nesdev that is not on the wiki.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:20 am 
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Banshaku wrote:
MetalSlime wrote:
local copy seems to work fine for me. The top and side menus don't work, but I don't think they are supposed to.


Yes, this is correct, they will not work because either they don't have content or refer to a special section of the wiki. Does it seems useful in it current state?

Now the next step it to check which document from nesdev that is not on the wiki.


Yes, I think it's really useful personally, though of course it will be better once the rest of the articles are organized and accessible.

I actually do most NES programming when I have free time at work, which is a place where I am not connected to the internet. So an offline version of the wiki is actually pretty sweet for me personally. I've been carrying around a lot of printouts stapled together, which makes my backpack heavier than it needs to be. I can probably retire the papers now :)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:32 pm 
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MetalSlime wrote:
I've been carrying around a lot of printouts stapled together, which makes my backpack heavier than it needs to be. I can probably retire the papers now :)


hmm, that reminds me...
Has anyone ever had the idea of creating a "quick reference card" for the NES (like there is for unix commands, apache and a lot more stuff, even GB programming) that fits on a single (or just a few) sheets of paper? Always liked them. They make nice posters, too. :)



More on-topic:
Maybe it would be helpful to have a database of commercial and homebrew nes games in the wiki? E.g. each entry could have:
    - general information on the right side like company, release date, - mapper used, prg and chr size and possibly more
    - info for emulator developers: emulator requirements, things to pay attention to
    - put a link to the corresponding entry at http://datacrystal.org somewhere for ram/rom locations and a list of hacks

Likely not enough points to warrant an article for each game, but maybe a single page for difficult-to-emulate games?
I just like having easily accessible in-depth info about games around. From a nesdev point of view that doesn't seem to make much sense, though, except for emulator developers.

Well, it's just an idea.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:51 pm 
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MetalSlime wrote:
Yes, I think it's really useful personally, though of course it will be better once the rest of the articles are organized and accessible.

I actually do most NES programming when I have free time at work, which is a place where I am not connected to the internet. So an offline version of the wiki is actually pretty sweet for me personally. I've been carrying around a lot of printouts stapled together, which makes my backpack heavier than it needs to be. I can probably retire the papers now :)


Yes, still some work to do for the articles. Maybe the not organized one yet will just be set temporary in the getting started section until they can be put at the right place.

The idea of a local version came to me because of 2 factors. Recently, the wiki was down randomly so it was annoying to not have access to the content when you really wanted it. That fix the first issue. The second one is I remember Tepples saying that he was programming while commuting (i.e. no internet access) so in that case, a local version is quite useful.

With a local version, "printer friendly" sections are less useful but we can still make them for people that prefer paper. Before you get rid of your paper version, make sure that all the content you need is there.

Now we need to go through the content of nesdev files and add everything that is missing and is useful.

miau wrote:
hmm, that reminds me...
Has anyone ever had the idea of creating a "quick reference card" for the NES (like there is for unix commands, apache and a lot more stuff, even GB programming) that fits on a single (or just a few) sheets of paper? Always liked them. They make nice posters, too. :)


This could be an idea and it could be put on the wiki too.

miau wrote:
More on-topic:
Maybe it would be helpful to have a database of commercial and homebrew nes games in the wiki? E.g. each entry could have:
    - general information on the right side like company, release date, - mapper used, prg and chr size and possibly more
    - info for emulator developers: emulator requirements, things to pay attention to
    - put a link to the corresponding entry at http://datacrystal.org somewhere for ram/rom locations and a list of hacks
Likely not enough points to warrant an article for each game, but maybe a single page for difficult-to-emulate games?
I just like having easily accessible in-depth info about games around. From a nesdev point of view that doesn't seem to make much sense, though, except for emulator developers.

Well, it's just an idea.


I consider emu authors also nesdev developers since they contribute emulators that will help for making new software so they should not be excluded.

Any information about software made is ok too. It's not like we have any space restriction or something :) The only problem is always "who" will fill that information. Nothing was going forward about the wiki (i.e. the waiting game) so I took the time and moved everything. Now I need people to contribute if we want the idea to fly. It should not be a one man army thing.

Regarding a list of commercial games with their specification, yes this is an idea because I wanted to find some details about X game and the bootgod database was down (now it just went back up). I would be useful a simple list of game N uses mapper X, board type X, has Y ammount of rom etc, anything that can be useful. We could always get the list from the bootgod db then format it for the wiki. At the least it would be useful when the bootgod db is down.


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