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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:32 am 
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People are trying to make money off this?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:23 am 
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Commercial homebrew has been around since at least the first Battle Kid (2010).


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:22 am 
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Espozo wrote:
People are trying to make money off this?

Most people here are no longer 17 year olds living with their parents with a lot of spare time on their hands. A lot of us have homes and kids to support, and as much as we'd like to release stuff for free, we often can't justify taking time away from real life jobs to develop retro games unless said games can bring any sort of revenue to help break costs even.

There actually is a market for this, and while success isn't guaranteed, I think it's great that everyone is free to try to grab a slice of that market.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:15 am 
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tokumaru wrote:
Espozo wrote:
People are trying to make money off this?

Most people here are no longer 17 year olds living with their parents with a lot of spare time on their hands. A lot of us have homes and kids to support, and as much as we'd like to release stuff for free, we often can't justify taking time away from real life jobs to develop retro games unless said games can bring any sort of revenue to help break costs even.

There actually is a market for this, and while success isn't guaranteed, I think it's great that everyone is free to try to grab a slice of that market.


Can't emphasize this enough. A little extra cash to help with bills, payments and general living expenses is VERY helpful. And having a full-time job and a social life really makes a person realize just how valuable and limited their time is. This isn't to say that making homebrew isn't fun or anything like that, just that being rewarded for effort monetarily is helpful. I also second that it is great that everyone can compete and make profit in this, essentially, hombrew free market.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:35 pm 
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tokumaru wrote:
Most people here are no longer 17 year olds living with their parents with a lot of spare time on their hands. A lot of us have homes and kids to support, and as much as we'd like to release stuff for free, we often can't justify taking time away from real life jobs to develop retro games unless said games can bring any sort of revenue to help break costs even.


I haven't really done much nes dev yet (maybe it pays out better) but from what I've done on other platforms: the money you make from homebrew is small enough that it's not worth chasing for me. I'd rather invest my hobby development time in whatever is most enjoyable for me instead of worrying about making a few bucks per hour. Maybe I'm just fortunate that my day job pays enough, though, that I can afford to not worry about it. But if the issue was money, I'd just take on some freelance work that pays real money.

So, for example, my last game (an Atari 2600 game) I'm releasing the source code for, because I want to. Will that cut down on what I make on cartridge sales? I dunno, probably a little. But it's not worth the difference to me in money. Of course, that's also why I tend to take 3 years to release a game :-/

(I'm not disagreeing with you, I don't mind if the money is a motivation for others. I'm just saying it's not always the case, even for other middle-age adults with a family to support)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:40 pm 
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Espozo wrote:
Out of making a game, I feel coding is the least of anyone here's problem. If NES development is anything like SNES development here, than people have even gone above and beyond what has been done in just about any commercial game (or at least we're working on it. Psychopathicteen seems to be done though for the most part, just some improvements). In terms of graphics, sound, and content though, no. I really think people need to collaborate on just one main game and bounce ideas of each other and improve what the other has done.


The other issue is finding the different talents to build the right kind of team. I don't necessarily need more programmers to help me, I need artists and musicians. Where do they hang out? The other homebrew development forums I've hung out on tend to be programmer-heavy (I'm new here, maybe it's different here?)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:48 pm 
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Music:
http://chipmusic.org/
http://forums.famitracker.com/
Pixel art:
http://pixelation.org/
http://pixeljoint.com/forum/

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:58 pm 
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Espozo wrote:
People are trying to make money off this?

Quote:
Commercial homebrew has been around since at least the first Battle Kid (2010).

I'll also add that this enormously pissed me off back then, for various reasons, but I really think it denatured what our community was about. For example I was almost hesitant to come up with my $4011 sine idea in the other thread, because I am afraid some jerk will make money off this (and pass him off as the inventor of the idea), but heh I would not have put this in use in any of my projects so I might as well not waste the idea and share it. My post also proves who had the idea, so it's no major issue.

Quote:
Most people here are no longer 17 year olds living with their parents with a lot of spare time on their hands. A lot of us have homes and kids to support, and as much as we'd like to release stuff for free, we often can't justify taking time away from real life jobs to develop retro games unless said games can bring any sort of revenue to help break costs even.

This is a rather poor excuse. If your goal is to feed your family, then you're not going to do that with NES homebrew period, even by swindling people and sell cartridges and goodies for awfully high prices. There is an infinite number of way you're going to gain infinitely more money for the same amount of worked hours (even if the jobs might not be as fun I agree).

My idea was that we're here for a hobby, and as such, we should not expect to be paid. If your hobby is hiking, cycling or playing music (heh I just cited my own other hobbies, but I could have cited anything) then you're not expected to get paid - you have a job for that, and you spend aprox. 40 hours for it already. 40 hours are dedicated for sleep, and the remaining 40 hours for free time. How much of that time to allocate family or nesdev is your own choice (kind of), and you shouldn't expect to be paid just because your time allocated to nesdev is decreasing - it's no excuse.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:06 pm 
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To answer the original question (I make it a separate post to make a potential thread split easier), I think purely online collaborations fail because people doesn't really know each other personally, and it fails to create a real group of people motivated with the same goal.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:41 pm 
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Bregalad has convinced me to give up NES development and go get a job in real estate. Lizard is cancelled. See you guys never.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:49 pm 
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rainwarrior wrote:
Bregalad has convinced me to give up NES development and go get a job in real estate. Lizard is cancelled. See you guys never.

Why do you have to take my comment so negatively? (Even if this was supposed to be a joke).


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:52 pm 
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rainwarrior wrote:
Bregalad has convinced me to give up NES development and go get a job in real estate. Lizard is cancelled. See you guys never.

My lizard is the lizard of subordinate financing.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:57 pm 
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Because what you said was extremely negative?

1. You said I should not expect to be paid for my work.

2. You called me a "swindler" for selling cartridges.

3. You said that what I am doing "denatures" our community (whatever that means).

4. I don't even know what you were suggesting about the "$4011 sine" idea. Which part of the idea do you want credit for, and how much money is it worth? What "jerk" is going to make money off it? Am I that jerk because I got interested in a similar idea because of your post and actually implemented it?

I'm not sure how you expected me not to read this negatively? It directly reflects on something which is very important to me.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:09 pm 
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rainwarrior wrote:
1. You said I should not expect to be paid for my work.

I never said that. (*)

Quote:
2. You called me a "swindler" for selling cartridges.

I hadn't the slightest idea you were selling carts but I don't care since I'm not interest in buying them. I said "even by swindling" - that doesn't mention anyone's name.

Quote:
3. You said that what I am doing "denatures" our community (whatever that means).

Again, not targetted at you specifically, and I hold that statement. I have no idea whether you already were part of us before 2010, by the way (not that I care).

Quote:
4. I don't even know what you were suggesting about the "$4011 sine" idea. Which part of the idea do you want credit for, and how much money is it worth?

It's worth $0, it's free as in "free software", just like anything I say here. I am not like those people who are here to make profit.

Quote:
What "jerk" is going to make money off it?

The same kind of people as those who sells romhacks for $100+.

Quote:
Am I that jerk because I got interested in a similar idea because of your post and actually implemented it?

No.

Quote:
I'm not sure how you expected me not to read this negatively? It directly reflects on something which is very important to me.

Yet once more again, not targetted at your or anyone specifically, just stating my opinion.

(*) After reading the following, what you said made more sense. I do not consider Nedev to be "work", but this is going to turn into a war of definition.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:02 pm 
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Well okay, Bregalad, you clarified that you weren't targetting me specifically, but from my view I can't really understand how what you're saying would apply to what Sivak / RetroUSB are doing but not to me?

If want to talk about yourself, that's fine. I don't mind if you don't want to buy cartridges. I don't mind if you don't want to be paid for work you do on your NESDev hobby projects. When you direct these statements outwardly at others, though, I find it very offensive.

The meaning of my sarcastic response was a direct rejection of this opinion. It was obliquely directed at Espozo's comment as well. It partly just meant: "I'm the one taking all the risk here, your opinions are irrelevant garbage."


I reject the idea that NES development work is exempt from monetary value. NES development isn't a special category of labour, neither is labour done on the weekends, or in the evenings, or at home, or on a boat. Unless you're violating a contract or copyright of some sort, you own your work, and you have the right to ask whatever you think it's worth for it.

It may not be worth what you ask, but that's your own problem to solve. It's not a "swindle" unless you're actually dishonest about what you're selling. (I don't like being called a liar.)


I can see that part of what I was reacting negatively was actually responding to tokumaru, and his appeal to the support of "homes and kids", etc. and really I agree with what I think you intended there. Selling a video game has nothing to do with being an adult with kids to feed. It's about having a game that people want to pay for. The kids are irrelevant to everyone but you. That's an appeal to charity, not a justification that someone should buy your game. Making a viable game takes risk; if you can't afford to do it because your kids are hungry, then you just shouldn't be doing it.


And finally, as always, this forum is quite possibly one of the worst places to have a discussion about whether a project has commercial viability. Partly because almost nobody here has ever run a commercial project. Partly because of people like Bregalad who would never buy an NES homebrew game anyway, and seem to resent others trying to earn money using the public wealth of knowledge that this community produced. Partly because of angry argumentative people like me. Every thread about this here turns into a trash fire.

I dunno, if you wanna argue about whether some hypothetical project that will never happen would be commercially viable, whatever. I got sucked in because I felt Bregalad's comments applied to me, in a way he didn't intend. Sorry for maybe flying off the handle, I should have just held my tongue.


Last edited by rainwarrior on Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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