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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:16 pm 
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The rise in the willingness for people to buy new NES games in 2016 I think has led to a rise in the quality of NES homebrew work. In the past, many neat demos were made, and small miniature games, but there were not a ton of games that would have me sitting down playing it for a few hours. I had a good time playing Thwaite and actually went back to it for more later. Zooming Secretary and Alter Ego can absolutely pass as professional early NES titles, and I've played them a bunch as well. I've even gotten some good play out of just the demo roms for Super Bat Puncher, Battle Kid, and Lizard. I haven't played Haunted Halloween '85 yet, but I'm happy to see a full-length game completed, covering all the bases of what's expected from a proper commercial title.

This is not to bash on earlier works, but the things made in the last five years I think have had made leaps of progress over the smaller fragmented works from before. By being able to sell homebrew, its time is better justified - as we've touched upon in this thread - and for a working adult that's a very important motivator for what may otherwise look like a giant time-sink.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:25 pm 
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I also really liked The Mad Wizard. I don't hear people talk about it much, but I thought it was a really solid little puzzle adventure.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:04 pm 
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Bregalad and rainwarrior completely missed the point of what I said. I didn't say that making retro games is a great way to support kids, nor that players should buy games to help developers support their families. Money wise, you're lucky if you're able to break even, I'm aware of that. And gamers should definitely only buy products they think are worth the price being asked, regardless of how the game came to be.

But if you're an adult with nearly no free time, because of the responsibilities of adult life, and you still want to make a great NES game, you may need to cut back on some of your responsibilities. You definitely can't stop taking care of your home, or your kids, so the most likely candidate for sacrifice is the boring work you're forced to do in order to pay the bills. The problem is that this also means you'll be paid less, so if you don't make anything from the games you develop, there's no way this is going to work.

Game developers in this situation are taking a gamble, and testing the hypothesis that their time spent on making games will generate enough revenue to make this arrangement feasible. This may not always be the case, but the fact is that there's a market for these kinds of games, and if you're confident you can make a cool game, I don't see why you shouldn't try to sell it. Even if you fail to make money in the end, at least you're gonna have a product you can be proud of.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:46 pm 
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rainwarrior wrote:
I can see that part of what I was reacting negatively was actually responding to tokumaru, and his appeal to the support of "homes and kids", etc. and really I agree with what I think you intended there. Selling a video game has nothing to do with being an adult with kids to feed. It's about having a game that people want to pay for. The kids are irrelevant to everyone but you. That's an appeal to charity, not a justification that someone should buy your game. Making a viable game takes risk; if you can't afford to do it because your kids are hungry, then you just shouldn't be doing it.

Double posting, because I just re-read this and I'm incredibly baffled at how you could get this impression from what I've said, like I was suggesting game developers trying to make a buck are like people selling candy in the bus telling sad stories (this might be a bad example, since I doubt this happens all around the world, but it does happen in Brazil, so whatever)... I wasn't saying why people should pay for games, I can't even understand how you'd get to that conclusion. Seriously, I have no words to describe how pointless and uncalled for this paragraph of yours was.

Your condescending tone towards nearly everyone in this forum has been bothering me for a while, but this paragraph really pissed me off. It's like you're looking for opportunities to act like this, because there was absolutely nothing about what I wrote that deserved this response.

I just erased the rest of this post, because I probably shouldn't be posting with a hot head, and I can't possibly see the words that were here before being of any use to anyone.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:01 pm 
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I wasn't expecting that kind of response either, actually.

Maybe I've become a bit volatile. I'm sorry, I seem to have said something much more insulting than I intended. I might be reacting too quickly and too emotionally too often.

Have I really been condescending here for a while? I don't think I want to be that kind of person. I'm really sorry if I am. I know I was deliberately mean to DRW a few days ago, and I shouldn't have been. I'm a bit scared right now that I may have said other harmful things without realizing it. Maybe I should just leave the forums for a while.

If there's something specific I've done that you want to point out to me, please PM me, and let me think about making amends. Otherwise, I think I'll take a break from this place. I apologize for my behaviour.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:04 pm 
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Don't take my word for the truth, this might be just me. We can talk in private once I cool off.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:26 pm 
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Double posting again, because I also want to give a direct response to Bregalad. I know what your opinion on this is, since we've been in the same forum for years, and every once in a while this subject comes up, and I respect your opinion.

Unfortunately, your 40/40/40 math doesn't really work in real life, at least not for me. When you take into account the commute to/from work, the lunch hour, the (often unpaid) overtime that's inherent to many jobs, a lot more time is spent on work than you'd normally think.

Making a complex game takes a lot of dedication, and finishing big projects using only leftover time can be very challenging, I'm sure you know this.

I'm gonna talk about me now, this is not some generic example:

I honestly believe I can make a great NES game, and I'd like to test that hypothesis, but that's gonna be really hard considering I can barely find time to sleep because of the time I spend at work and taking care of my home and family. The ONLY way I can possibly consider seriously developing a full game is if I can make some money off of it, to compensate for the money I'll not be making from some random soul-sucking job that doesn't bring me any joy or sense of accomplishment.

I don't want to get rich with an NES game. I don't want money to buy more stuff, I don't want money to travel, I don't want money to party. What I want is to make a game. All I care about is bringing the game to existence. But that won't happen if I don't have the money to buy the time needed to make it. That's the only thing I expect to buy.

Look at me, speaking like I even have anything to sell! Well, that's something we're just gonna have to wait and see.

Once I have something to sell, people are gonna judge whether the asking price is fair or not. I'm not gonna force anyone to buy anything or tell sad stories to sell games based on pity. If I succeed, I'll keep doing it for as long as this process is feasible, if not, I'll probably learn something for a possible next attempt.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:14 am 
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rainwarrior wrote:
I don't mind if you don't want to buy cartridges.

Well, I spoke too quickly. My opinion is that the supperior model is having a ROM which is freely distributable and a cartridge as well - if I know it's going to be great because I played the ROM, I agree to pay for the cartridge (even expensive). In other words, if I can 1) play the rom of anyone's homebrew and 2) I enjoy and 3) I can order a physical cart, I will order it gladly. (This haven't happened yet, but I'm not against the idea).

If I can only play an incomplete demo or see video, then no thanks. What I am against is not releasing ROMs for free for everyone - but I'm not going to state why in order to not bring oil in the fire. If you're interested just use the search function to look at the old argument.

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When you direct these statements outwardly at others, though, I find it very offensive.

I'm sorry. We had all that argument back then, and in the meanwhile I accepted the new situation. I shouldn't have brought this old argument as this is pointless.

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I reject the idea that NES development work is exempt from monetary value. NES development isn't a special category of labour, neither is labour done on the weekends, or in the evenings, or at home, or on a boat. Unless you're violating a contract or copyright of some sort, you own your work, and you have the right to ask whatever you think it's worth for it.

I most certainly agree with all that.
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It may not be worth what you ask, but that's your own problem to solve. It's not a "swindle" unless you're actually dishonest about what you're selling. (I don't like being called a liar.)

I looked this word in a dictionary because I didn't know how to say that in english - so don't be picky on that work. What I attempted to say is that, if you're going to rentabilize selling NES games to the point of actually be rentable and feed a family from that activity, you'd have to "swindle" people your custommers. Note the "if" part.

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Partly because of angry argumentative people like me. Every thread about this here turns into a trash fire.

To my personal experience, other forums are much worse in average in this regards. Although it was, in my personal opinion, better here in the 2000-2010 time period, which probably was the golden age of Nesdev, it's still great today.

@Tokumaru : Basically, I fully agree with all what you said. Your previous post really maked it to sound like Nesdev was a rentable activity and an option for feeding a family, and I retorqued, perhaps clumsly, that it's not. We basically all agree on that.

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I honestly believe I can make a great NES game.

I honnestly believe you can, too.
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Unfortunately, your 40/40/40 math doesn't really work in real life, at least not for me. When you take into account the commute to/from work, the lunch hour, the (often unpaid) overtime that's inherent to many jobs, a lot more time is spent on work than you'd normally think.

Definitely, although in my opinion you shouldn't accept unpaid overtime exept in exeptional situations, but commuting and other obligatory duties such as eating, toilet, household, etc.., and socialising a little, easily reduces the 40 hours of free time to about 10-20.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:22 am 
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Bregalad wrote:
it was, in my personal opinion, better here in the 2000-2010 time period, which probably was the golden age of Nesdev

That's because I didn't show up yet, right? :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:05 pm 
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tokumaru wrote:
Unfortunately, your 40/40/40 math doesn't really work in real life, at least not for me. When you take into account the commute to/from work, the lunch hour, the (often unpaid) overtime that's inherent to many jobs, a lot more time is spent on work than you'd normally think.
Agreed, though more on the "third shift" of biological requirements being insufficient. (Though, the week being 144h instead of 120h helps mitigate this)
Sleep itself: 8 hours * 7 days/week (generally considered standard for health) = 56 hours
Hygiene: 1 hour/week if you're incredibly efficient with your time; more like 3.5-7 for those not on a military-grade hygiene habit.
Food I'd not add to work; it's not technically work. but, 1.5-3 hours/d * 7 d = 10.5-21 hours
---
so, 70 hours for bodily integrity, leaving 74; that gives you 40 for "standard" work. I don't have a commute average, but i'd guess one hour. Tokyo commutes are said to be in the vicinity of four each way, if I remember my hearsay. (That makes for 40 work + 40 commute = 80 hours, cutting into bio-maintenance, with no free time. No wonder coffin hotels became a thing.)
70+40+5*2h = 120 hours, 24 hours a week of "free" time, before ANY social activity is included.

Looks like bregalad already touched on this, but yeah. And in my experience, coding is not lke reading a book where one may easily start and stop; laying out your mise and getting thoughts in order on what to do next, and loading/bringing up your tool suite…it's overhead and being the least-prioritized scheduler item means that starting and stopping is happening a lot.

---

The worktime stuff really should be split.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:02 am 
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I thought the rule put in place after a previous discussion about my flawed moderation habits was not to split any topic in which rainwarrior had posted.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:24 am 
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I agree with tepples and rainwarrior. Don't split topics unnecessarily.

Work/Free time is somewhat related to managing complexity...time management being a factor.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:09 am 
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Speaking seriously for a moment, when is Lizard expected to be released? Will regular copies be available? I'm in Canada so it's really tough trying to use kickstarter up here.

Also, your avatar is better without the darkening. I dunno why but I can't help but smile when I see it.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:04 pm 
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The darkening of his avatar is symbolism of his withdrawal, or rather to his distance in regard to this forum. Note that since his last post to this thread, he posts only about once per day, whereas just before that moment he was much more active; the darkening happened around that time, too. He is still around fortunately.

Many people feel the need to signal their leave, for example by altering their avatar in a rather symbolic way. For example, tepples cycled his avatar during one of his (short) hiatus, when he questioned the pertinence of his presence on this forum (tepples, whatever what others say, we want you over here!). Once things sorts out, rainwarrior will probably revert back to its original avatar, confirming he's back and kicking.

People should learn to take anything, and people, especially from the Internet, with a (big) grain of salt. Text never was a good medium to convey feelings in general. It's better not to assume offense from someone's writing. At other times, though, people do really hurtful things. Bregalad is opinionated and is prone to do ad hominem attacks toward others, more so when talking about making money from things apparently. For instance, his attitude once drove blargg, one of the most valuable nesdev member, away (blargg came back only 2 years after). It's worth noting however that blargg is known to be short-tempered, too, but that's beside the point. Anyways, even when faced with direct attacks, we should act civilized, recognize that the interlocutor is in fault in doing personal attacks and try to reason him, cool-headed. Try hard to break the heat/hate cycle.

I won't go as far as saying that rainwarrior was condescending, but I sure saw that lately, he had a bitter, angrier tone, which I find surprising because he used to be rather calm and cool. Guess that he's having not so great days these times...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:37 am 
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You would think after being a user here since 2004, everyone else here would recognize the antics of Bregalad (and also 3gengames). The latter in particular was also at NintendoAge, he was smart but had a short fuse, his angry tangents and attacks on other users got him banned.

Can't we all just kiss and make up? It seems like every new development that trickles down into the non-techy NES communities starts here. It's like stepping through the looking glass here at NesDev. I'm not overtly knowledgeable on the hardware of the NES, much less the software, but I do love to read about it. Thanks NesDev!

While we're on the subject, who founded NesDev? Was it Tepples? Memblers?


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