What drove koitsu away from nesdev

Discuss technical or other issues relating to programming the Nintendo Entertainment System, Famicom, or compatible systems.

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Celius
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Post by Celius » Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:11 am

Just remember one of the rules of humanity: "Though shalt not highjack a thread unless it is his own...". Okay, I made that up, and that wasn't even funny, and didn't make much sense, so I'm going to stop talking... Okay, that's just how I look at thread highjacking...

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Post by Bregalad » Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:43 pm

The highhackers in the story is you guys, because the thread was originally talking of a subject and eventually slipped on another, but there you're suddently speaking of something totally different, and that's much more highacking that just slip on another side subject. By the way, I can't say what's wrong with speaking about a side subject since there is no reason for speaking about the original one anymore, and since there is no reason to open a new thred because some post about something make you think about something else.
Life is complex: it has both real and imaginary components.

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Post by blargg » Sun Oct 23, 2005 1:51 pm

and since there is no reason to open a new thred because some post about something make you think about something else.
Some view this as a chat board, others as a place for information. The latter are served better when topics can be found by thread.

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Post by Celius » Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:15 pm

I think of thread hijacking as completely changing the subject. Like randomly in the middle of a thread, just say like that one guy : "online spam_ignore: url". If you don't know about that, there was a guy in one of these threads who would just randomly post links to online pharmacies, and it was really stupid and annoying. I think mr. Memblers made it so whenever he posted a link to an online spam_ignore, it would link to some dr. mario thing. It was quite humorous. That is thread hijacking. I don't think a conversation where the subject changes fluently as thread hijacking.

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Post by tepples » Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:42 pm

blargg wrote:Some view this as a chat board, others as a place for information. The latter are served better
...by the wiki.

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blargg
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Post by blargg » Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:31 am

I hereby commit to posting all future test ROMs and information to the wiki, rather than here.

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Post by Roth » Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:07 am

I really wish I knew more to help participate in a group project. Maybe in the future however.

On the topic of the wiki, I was thinking that a seperate forum be set-up here on the boards for discussing different ideas and such for it, as opposed to the Site Ideas page. It seems that a message board is just for that, ideas and exchange, whereas the wiki should just be the source where the info is stored. I think it would make more sense that way since I don't _think_ many people check for anything on there on a daily basis (not most, at least).

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Memblers
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Post by Memblers » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:47 pm

Yeah, it's a good idea. I've been wanting to see more activity on the wiki also, so we'll see if that helps.

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Post by loopy » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:33 pm

Last edited by loopy on Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Memblers
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Post by Memblers » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:42 pm

It's from a severe lack of site updates, also it was in an indefinite state for a while when it first opened. It's looking alright now I think, I'll add a quick link to it onto the main page.

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koitsu
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Post by koitsu » Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:38 am

Bananmos wrote:You kept bullying newcomers to the #nesdev channel, often using racist language.
I understand your concern, and this might not make a shit of a difference, but it's worth a shot explaining (because I won't be the only person you encounter who does this, especially on IRC):

There are many people -- particularly on IRC -- who aren't racist or discriminatory (myself definitely included) but use words like "nigger" or "gay" as pure conversation filler words; there's absolutely zero discriminatory/negative intent when using them. Hell, a few years back I had a gay roommate who used to call things "gay", if that says anything about the state of the word... You see, they're partially used for shock value and partially as a juxtaposition (probably the wrong word to use for this, but basically inducing a side-by-side comparison between the word "nigger" to describe just some random jackass, and "nigger" to describe someone, in a negative tone, who's black).

Even in this day and age, it blows my mind that we still have racists and discernment in our societies. Our neo-Nazi group in the States is still loud and proud, which is quite disappointing. Why can't people mentally evolve? Get over the hurdle, realise there's more important things than skin colour or sexuality. Hold *individuals* responsible, not skin colour or sexual "preference". In Sweden, I know you guys have people like Bjorn Lennartsson, who's quite adamant about expressing his hatred towards blacks. I find people like that baffling, and therefore funny. I guess I'm weird like that.

Even if you disagree with my social characteristics, at least give me the benefit of the doubt and try to understand things from my POV.
I can relate to what you say about being happier just playing NES games than doing development. That's mainly what I do nowadays as well. But fortunately, it hasn't made me feel the same way about the time I spent learning what goes on behind the scenes in my favourite games. I'd almost say I enjoy them more when knowing how things like the cool vertical parallax scrolling in the Mega Man 2 intro really works. I also like to read these forums from time to time, talk to old friends and help others test their stuff and improve their code, just by proposing the wild ideas I no longer care to try out myself.
Our experiences are obviously different. :-) For me, it takes away from something -- for you, it helps you enjoy them more (probably because you not only appreciate the game for what it's intended for, but also the complexity/hardships involved in creating something like what you're seeing on-screen).

Then again, I'm an Aquarius -- we're well-known for having to know how everything works, and more importantly, why something is the way it is / why something does what it does. For some things (like electrical engineering, which I'm not very good at), I seem to enjoy the fruits of my labours -- while on things that have nostalgic value, I've found I enjoy more keeping as "true to my roots" as I can.
I've also started (a very slow) development of a puzzle game which I hope to make for the NES. Besides thinking a lot about what elements to add to make the gameplay more fun, work on it mainly consists of learning to draw nice low-color graphics, something I've always wanted to do but never took the time to learn when all my focus was on becoming a "l33t" coder. It might never see the light of day since it competes with lots of other hobbies I have nowadays, but for once I'm focusing on designing a fun game experience rather than just pushing hardware limits.
I can totally understand what you mean here, but for me, it only applies when I *create* something from scratch. I enjoy the results of my hobbyist work (especially when I can physically/visually see them -- probably why I enjoy programming as a hobby and not as a career!)...

Which kinda brings me to a point I missed in my PocketHeaven post:

NES development was starting to feel like a burdeon on my shoulders, rather than something I enjoyed doing. Don't get me wrong, I initially enjoyed it, but over time it became and more and more stressful. I started feeling like I NEEDED to update my documentation, or NEEDED to help people with things, explain things to people, etc. etc. -- rather than just do it because it was something I liked to do.

For me, it's a lot like my professional job vs. my hobbies. I refuse to get involved with professional video game development, because I know damn well what it'll do to me: it'll kill any possibility of me ENJOYING games. This is why I prefer to keep gaming and necessities (i.e. my job) entirely separate. Of course, I honestly wish I would've gone into a different field than UNIX administration (it used to be a hobby, and I think I enjoyed it more back when it was just that), but at this point it's too late to turn back -- and it's something I'm professionally good at.

I guess you could say that for me NES development was becoming more and more like a "job", rather than a hobby. That's another reason I backed off...
Even if I suspect your note about famitracker was directed at me ...
Haha, I had a feeling you'd say something like that. :P Let me make myself clear: IT *WAS NOT* DIRECTED AT YOU IN ANY WAY. It had nothing to do with you, NT2, or my past experiences with either.

You know as well as I do that I've always wanted a native Win32 tracker-like NES music composition tool that uses DirectX and so on. For a few years I got really involved with software synthesizers and analogue software synths, solely because I wanted to make NES-esque music on my PC. I wasn't the only one who wanted to do that either... as now you can find hundreds upon hundreds of people who do it.

Since then I've lost my interest in it, but once I found FamiTracker, I sat around tinkering with it for a few hours last week and found myself enjoying it. However, it needs documentation -- and by that I mean REAL documentation, not the compiled HTML documentation that comes with it. There's a TON of stuff which makes absolutely no sense to me (and I'm familiar with actual Roland sequencers!), but that's not for you to write... :-)

All in all, I'd be most happy to see you and jsr both work together (even if indirectly or just by talking about things) to make FamiTracker better. I think it's the start of a new beginning, and can help enhance home-brewn NES stuff greatly. We all know music has been one of the "general unknowns" of the nesdev arena for a very long time now...
I didn't mean to put you down, but I felt I had to give my side of the story.
I understand entirely, and I don't take it personally (no matter what you or others might think :-) ). It's history; I'm still the same general person, but I'm older, somewhat more mature, somewhat better rounded, and (I'd like to hope) wiser.
And btw, if you'd still like to see your FF2j intro work on a real NES, I could check out your source and see if I can figure out what the bugs are.
I'd like that. Of course, I don't like giving out / showing code to a lot of my projects, because of general sensitivity issues. :-( I'm picky like that, I suppose. Also, to make matters worse, the only good/working copy of the code I have is for FF2j v1.02. v1.03 and v1.04 were supposed to be full re-writes (for a lot of different reasons, but the big one was that I yanked some (what I thought to be) unused code/data from the PRG region for the intro, and it later turned out to likely be used... :-( My own fault entirely...)

All I can figure out is that I'm probably trying to do too much inside of a VBlank, since the pattern + attribute table are getting trashed only during the time when I adjust the palette. I remember reading other peoples' code and saying "Ohhh, that must be why they set the PPU address to $2C00 or $2400 or $2000 at the end of their routine, to ensure that the PPU picks up where the pattern table / attribute table / whatever is at the start of VBlank..." But like I've said time and time again, I flat-out do not understand all of the newer information on the PPU.

At least there's emulators which show the problem, so that one can use those to get things working "generally correct", and then try it out on actual hardware to see if it REALLY works. :-)

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Post by tepples » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:53 am

koitsu wrote:There are many people -- particularly on IRC -- who aren't racist or discriminatory (myself definitely included) but use words like "nigger" or "gay" as pure conversation filler words; there's absolutely zero discriminatory/negative intent when using them.
And some communities have inside jokes. For instance, DDRei.com started using "balloon fever" instead of "gay" one day (hence my avatar over there).
(probably the wrong word to use for this, but basically inducing a side-by-side comparison between the word "nigger" to describe just some random jackass, and "nigger" to describe someone, in a negative tone, who's black).
Chris Rock defined "nigger" as essentially a slacker. For example, people who remain on welfare by choice are "niggers."
over time it became and more and more stressful. I started feeling like I NEEDED to update my documentation, or NEEDED to help people with things, explain things to people, etc. etc. -- rather than just do it because it was something I liked to do.
In that case, it was probably time to name a successor as the maintainer of nestech.txt.
All in all, I'd be most happy to see you and jsr both work together (even if indirectly or just by talking about things) to make FamiTracker better. I think it's the start of a new beginning, and can help enhance home-brewn NES stuff greatly. We all know music has been one of the "general unknowns" of the nesdev arena for a very long time now...
The GBA community has the advantage here because the hardware is capable of playing a .s3m file in real time so that people can use existing music editor software such as Modplug Tracker. If we can figure out how to map the NES PSG's capabilities onto one of the "standard" tracked music formats such as XM, that might help.
I remember reading other peoples' code and saying "Ohhh, that must be why they set the PPU address to $2C00 or $2400 or $2000 at the end of their routine, to ensure that the PPU picks up where the pattern table / attribute table / whatever is at the start of VBlank..." But like I've said time and time again, I flat-out do not understand all of the newer information on the PPU.
When in doubt, just make sure to set $2000, $2005, $2005, and $2001 at the end of vblank. If you need more time than 2300 cycles or so (20+3/4 lines between vblank NMI and when the PPU picks up the new address), you can split an update across 2 vblanks, or you can use sprite 0 to turn off rendering nine lines early like Tetramino does.
At least there's emulators which show the problem, so that one can use those to get things working "generally correct", and then try it out on actual hardware to see if it REALLY works. :-)
Nintendulator is the answer, of course.

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Post by koitsu » Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:17 pm

tepples wrote:In that case, it was probably time to name a successor as the maintainer of nestech.txt.
No need to name a successor -- I told Tennessee Carmel-Veilleux back with the final release of nestech that the document was to become pure 100% public domain... which means anyone + everyone should edit it and maintain it. Tennessee later told me he wished to take over maintaining the document, and I dunno what ever became of that (though I know he's still around! :D)...

Of course, there's now Wikis, so that'd probably be a better solution in general. Beating a dead horse (per se) with this one though...
If we can figure out how to map the NES PSG's capabilities onto one of the "standard" tracked music formats such as XM, that might help.
I think this would make things a lot easier on, well, everyone. Off the top of my head, I know of 4 people who would tinker around with NES music if they had a tracker-like interface and had some easier interface to making it (and understood what they were doing; only one of them is familiar with analogue-like audio (C64), the others are only familiar with purely digital audio formats (MP3, etc.)). MML and MCK they all have said "is an absolute shitfest" and refuse to learn it -- I guess that makes me #5, since I feel similarly about it.
When in doubt, just make sure to set $2000, $2005, $2005, and $2001 at the end of vblank. If you need more time than 2300 cycles or so (20+3/4 lines between vblank NMI and when the PPU picks up the new address), you can split an update across 2 vblanks, or you can use sprite 0 to turn off rendering nine lines early like Tetramino does.
The "when in doubt" advice is what I tried to do with v1.03 and v1.04, but it amounted to nothing -- still the same problems (and I did have one guy who was able to test it on real NES hardware; I sent him the updated binaries, and he said it did the same thing :( ). So there's something I'm obviously missing, and it's definitely coder-error on my part...
Nintendulator is the answer, of course.
Or VirtuaNES (which I prefer). :-)

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Post by Guest » Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:58 am

Hi, Folks. Chris C. here

Guys, I don't know about the aforementioned infighting and elitism (maybe I wasn't on IRC at the time), but I can indeed relate to Koitsu/Yoshi/JDC's last reason.... that sometimes it got that when I played NES games, I no longer enjoyed them for fun, and was instead always thinking about how the programmers implemented some trick or another. It was so distracting.

So in the last two years, I've felt guilty for not doing more programming, but I found myself just enjoying playing lots of games on different systems. It seemed emptier than programming, but also a lot more relaxing and carefree. More like Childhood, I guess.

So, anyway, best of luck to y'all. I don't have any working NES devcarts anymore, which is one reason why I haven't programmed much on the NES recently, or kept up with NESDev discoveries (and intrigue). My PC-Engine devcart is working fine, so I'm having fun programming for the PCE these days. And, if you ever found the poem hidden in Solar Wars, you'd know why. ;-)

TTFN.

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Post by doppelganger » Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:09 pm

This whole thing about being driven away because you know too much about what goes on behind-the-scenes sounds rather self-defeating. But that's just my opinion.
Be whatever the situation demands.

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