It is currently Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:41 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:50 am
Posts: 79
Quietust wrote:

Even if you consume the Sprite tiles as well, you still get only 512 tiles, which is not enough for the entire screen. Remember, you can NOT update CHR RAM during rendering - the only thing you can do is bankswitch it.


Isn't the CHR /A13 (CHR /CE) is inactive during the image rendering? by replacing the RAM with extremely fast one (with 15ns or so) would allow to write to CHR RAM during the HBlank perioid?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:35 pm
Posts: 3944
Does MMC5 have the ability to bankswitch vram away so it's writable, then switch it back?

_________________
Here come the fortune cookies! Here come the fortune cookies! They're wearing paper hats!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 7235
Location: Chexbres, VD, Switzerland
sepi wrote:
Isn't the CHR /A13 (CHR /CE) is inactive during the image rendering? by replacing the RAM with extremely fast one (with 15ns or so) would allow to write to CHR RAM during the HBlank perioid?

Such notes doesn't help at all because :
- They need to modify the hardware to work
- I DO need tiles for sprites
- This makes BG scrooling impossible (or at one frame per second, which isn't reasonable at all), and it's not what I want to get.

Okay, MMC5 with ExGrafix would help, because of infinite tileset and tile-limited palette attribute.
Quote:

Does MMC5 have the ability to bankswitch vram away so it's writable, then switch it back?

I didn't understand the meaing of this senstence, but MMC5 can only run CHR ROM.
However, even with one-tile limited attribute, that still doesn't allow me to change attributes diagonally, this only allow me to have one-tile precision instead of four-tiles precision. Color glitches would definitely be less horrible with MMC5, but that doesn't help me to know how to planify tilesets (which are, okay, indefinite with MMC5) or how to planify nametables.
I think the map should first be converted in 2D in RAM, then drawn on the screen. That's the only way to make the screen scolling and have a game decently working with isometric graphics.
But how convert a map from isometric to 2D ?

_________________
Life is complex: it has both real and imaginary components.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:12 pm
Posts: 19122
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
Bregalad wrote:
But how convert a map from isometric to 2D ?

You do it at compile time. Go buy Starcraft and play with its map editor.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Posts: 10068
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
Bregalad, you said that, for practical reasons, a column shouldn't have anything smaller than itself behind it. But then all the maps would end up looking like this:

Image

And that could get pretty boring. What will all the levels be about? Climbing mountains? I know that clipping the sprites so that they can go behind blocks can be a pain, but there must be a way. Even if we clip at the 8x8 tile level, as happens in Sonic 3D Blast sometimes (when entering tunnels or with the loops). However, I think sprite masks could do the job, if one is feeling generous about sprites.

Think about it... if there is such a limitation, simple things like this would not be possible:

Image

We should just play isometric games to get some ideas... I'm not saying to copy anything, it's just so we can get a light on the attribute thing...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:07 am 
Offline
Formerly Fx3
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:59 pm
Posts: 3064
Location: Brazil
Dwedit wrote:
Does MMC5 have the ability to bankswitch vram away so it's writable, then switch it back?


He means mapping VRAM (writable) or VROM (read only). ^_^;;

_________________
Zepper
RockNES developer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:23 am
Posts: 1194
Location: Behind you with a knife!
Bregalad wrote:
This makes BG scrooling...


Scrolling not scrooling. No offense whatsoever but it cracks me up when you do that! lmao

_________________
http://www.jamesturner.de/


Last edited by WedNESday on Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 7235
Location: Chexbres, VD, Switzerland
tokumaru : You got well the limitation I was thinking about. Do you really think it would be that boring ? With just green blocks it may look boring, but with more complex backgrounds and much, much larger maps with threes, rivers, etc... on it, I don't fell it would be boring.
There is a lot of problems with a block being behind another one.
Look :
Image
Doesn't that green surface looks both to be above the others (as you would it to be), if you look from the bottom to the top, or look to be the one "behind" the one you would it to be, if you look from the top to the bottom ? In that case, the two yellow cliffs would "hide" this particular block, and in the case you would show, the block that is higher than the others mask 100% of the block behind it. That is really anoying in games when its happen, making me prefer 2D games, simply because I like to see everything clearly on screen. However, if that block would be twice less high, one small portion of the one behind would still be visible, making thing looks a bit clearer.
So the ideal would be to allow only a "behind" block to be one half of the base map's lenght lower than the one in front of it, making confusion impossible, and give to the game a bit of depht. That's what I think Tactics Ogre does. If you want more, you should play on a 3D system that is able to rotate the map.
And please let me know how did you draw those samples blocks, else I'll get upset. I really don't understand how that works.

For sprite clipping, it would just need some sprites with higher priority but backgroudn bit set. That would work fine, but the 8-sprite limitation can get all things to gabrage.

Edit : The problem I mention above appears in Tactics Ogre
That blocks seems to the user bo be non-existing
Image
since this one is higer, and has the same on-screen position
Image

_________________
Life is complex: it has both real and imaginary components.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:33 am
Posts: 3715
Location: Central Texas, USA
Quote:
Image

And that could get pretty boring. What will all the levels be about?


It worked well for one particular game in the 1980s. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:23 am
Posts: 1194
Location: Behind you with a knife!
blargg wrote:
It worked well for one particular game in the 1980s. :)


Sure it worked well but that doesn't satisfy everyone, especially not in this post. IMO, Qbert was rubbish anyway, and the NES deserves much better.

_________________
http://www.jamesturner.de/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 7235
Location: Chexbres, VD, Switzerland
Yeah, but with much, much larger maps and combination it could work just fine, or am I wrong ? Also, the blocks don't HAVE to be higher than the other ones. It is possible to put long flat aeras between cliffs, and additional background else than grass, to make a pretty decent game with an isometric system.
Actually, the first level of Snake 'n' Roll DOES have that limitation. Scince I'm unable to even know how I'm suposed to get the second level, I cannot say about the rest of the game.

_________________
Life is complex: it has both real and imaginary components.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Posts: 10068
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
Bregalad wrote:
Look :
Image


Yeah, I know what you mean. There is no way to tell if that square belongs to the top of the block or to the floor behind it...

Quote:
However, if that block would be twice less high, one small portion of the one behind would still be visible, making thing looks a bit clearer.


Sure, sure. But that will be one more issue for our already existent attribute problem. Unless half-sized blocks used the same palette as the block behind, then there would be no attribute problem. Smaller blocks do add to the visuals, that's for sure.

Quote:
And please let me know how did you draw those samples blocks, else I'll get upset. I really don't understand how that works.


MSPAINT all the way. I just used basic blocks like these:
Image

In fact, these blocks show very well what we're dealing with. With blocks this size, we'd have to be prepared for some floor/floor, floor/wall, wall/wall encounters, but not too many. Of course it will get more complex when you add slopes, half-height blocks, etc.

A while ago I was thinking of making an isometric game, and drew some tests images like this:
Image

The structure of the blocks (just flat blocks, better textures were to come) here is a bit different from what I proposed above. I did it like this so that when black lines crossed there would be no weird visual effects, but this method requires some extra tiles, beyond the ones presented before.

Quote:
For sprite clipping, it would just need some sprites with higher priority but backgroudn bit set. That would work fine, but the 8-sprite limitation can get all things to gabrage.


Yeah, that's exactly what I meant by "masks". The sprite limitation is a pain.

Quote:
Actually, the first level of Snake 'n' Roll DOES have that limitation. Scince I'm unable to even know how I'm suposed to get the second level, I cannot say about the rest of the game.


When you said that I spent some time thinking and figured you were right. But then I checked and there seems to be some hidden areas in there:http://www.nesstuff.kit.net/snake2.png I took the image from the web and circled one of the hidden areas. I don't know if they're accessible or not, since I haven't played this in a while.

EDIT: Yeah, I played the game and it turns out these are not hidden areas, but areas with angled walls, so the player can't go there and that makes sense. HOWEVER, the player can go behind blocks when inside the water. In the case of this game, it is easy to implement this if the water's color is color 0.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:38 pm
Posts: 47
isn't marble madness also isometric?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Posts: 10068
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
danimal wrote:
isn't marble madness also isometric?

Yes it is, but more in that "puzzle game kinda way", as the game blargg pointed out. A game that is just "blocky" for the sake of it is very different from a game that wants to simulate a real enviroment in a pseudo-3D way. But, due to the low-end hardware we have we end up having to represent the world with blocks, but a more realistic world nonetheless.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Posts: 10068
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
WedNESday wrote:
Scrolling not scrooling. No offense whatsoever but it cracks me up when you do that! lmao


Haha... Well, I, like Bregalad, am not a native english speaker, and I don't know about him, but I always think of the word "scrooling" before "scrolling", and have to pay attention to this when writing here.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group