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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:43 pm 
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Celius wrote:
Bregalad wrote:
Are maps based on tiles or metatiles ? It would be better to be based on metatiles, so it can be used in an actual game.


What do you mean by that? Like, are they written to memory as tile #s or meta tile #s? Well, if that was your question, They are written as the first tile in the meta tile. So if $36 is written to memory, this is what it will appear as when loaded on the screen:

$36,$37
$46,$47


I don't think that's quite what he meant. When we refer to meta-tiles, we refer to numbers which refer to a sequence of tile numbers AND a set of attributes.
For example, one could have three meta-tiles $05, $45, and $85, all displaying as $04,$05,$14,$15 ('brick'), while the first would be solid, the second would be a fake wall, and the third would be breakable. Incidentally, this is almost exactly how Metroid stores its blocks (though it also takes things a step further and stores 'objects', predefined groups of tiles for common structures such as platforms, walls, and doors).

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:15 pm 
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Quietust wrote:

I don't think that's quite what he meant. When we refer to meta-tiles, we refer to numbers which refer to a sequence of tile numbers AND a set of attributes.
For example, one could have three meta-tiles $05, $45, and $85, all displaying as $04,$05,$14,$15 ('brick'), while the first would be solid, the second would be a fake wall, and the third would be breakable. Incidentally, this is almost exactly how Metroid stores its blocks (though it also takes things a step further and stores 'objects', predefined groups of tiles for common structures such as platforms, walls, and doors).


Okay, I get that, but what am I answering still? What exactly is the question? I'm sorry, I'm just a little confused (or aka retarded..).


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:30 am 
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The "question" is just that I found better to output that is totally usable by an actual game engine than an output that needs modifications to be incorporated in an usable game engine. So metatiles should comes with 4 tiles index, collision detection, two color bits, etc...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 8:28 pm 
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Okay, I'm thinking of making a music editor program like this. Except it would not use the target system, it would use a zapper system, so you can easily edit things with the mouse. This is just an idea, mind you. But this is not meant to be played on a real NES, as is my level editor. I'd feel pretty stupid sitting there shooting the screen with the zapper gun on a music editor. And It'd just cause more complications putting it on the NES. But do any of you think an editor, not just a music editor, using the zapper system could result in a good developing environment?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:00 pm 
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The Arkanoid paddle might be easier to integrate into a decent music editor than the Zapper, especially given that unlike the Super Scope, the Zapper is not a positional input device.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:14 pm 
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tepples wrote:
the Zapper is not a positional input device.


I'm sorry, I don't get what you mean. What do you mean by Positional Input Device? Sorry, just trying to clarify things...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:36 pm 
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A bit of theory:

Absolute position input (e.g. Nintendo DS touch screen, Super NES Super Scope, Arkanoid paddle): These return one or two dimensions of displacement from the origin of a coordinate system. Some operate through resistance; others operate through timing against a CRT monitor.

Relative position input (e.g. Super NES Mouse): These return an (x, y) displacement from the last read position. The software can integrate these to approximate an absolute position.

In-out input (e.g. NES Zapper): These tell whether the cursor is over a light area or a dark area. Iterating which areas are dark and which are light allows you to distinguish up to a couple dozen distinct regions. Distinguishing more regions takes longer and can lose accuracy if the cursor moves while the code is narrowing down which region was hit. Some can also return the Y coordinate of the absolute position using timed code, but generally not at the same time as hit testing.

Symbol input (e.g. Family Basic keyboard): These give a stream of symbols corresponding to "keys", or distinct absolute regions on the input device. The system is conceptually similar to in-out, except 1. the regions cannot be moved, but 2. the input is generally read closer to instantly even if the fingers are moving, making the input much cleaner than you would get with an in-out system that involves a TV monitor in the feedback loop.

How hard would it be to support the Super NES Mouse in an NES emulator?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:31 am 
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Mind if I make some suggestions to improve this editor? If you're gonna work on it anymore.

It's great other than not being able to see most of the graphics.

What I'd suggest is using 4-screen for the nametables. The upper-right nametable could be the metatile selection screen for the cursor, then the other 3 nametables could be the editing area (and scrollable). That way they could be displayed properly with attributes and everything.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:15 am 
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I suppose you're right. I am making a completely new editor for multiple screen levels. The pain of making the editor with actual size metatiles is that it seems like you are zoomed in like a mile. Everything's too far apart. My engine for loading these kind of maps is going to load attributes depending on what tile is being loaded. Like tiles from $E0-$F0 use pallete 2 or something. I don't know. I still need to think about this for a little bit more...


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:09 am 
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You could reserve a button to switch between the map preview and the editor.
You choose a metatile, then press the select button to land on the map, then click A where you want to paste that metatile.
You could also make an authomatic compression when you save your map to a .sav file. Google "compression algorithm" or something to get some fair ideas.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:56 am 
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I just thought that, in my case, such editor couldn't work because my levels are quite large. So the 8kb of RAM an editor would be able to use would not be enough to edit a whole level. Maybe it'd work if I had editors for each part of the level, and the output of one editor is attached to the ROM of the next. Would only be useful with emulators, of course.

Could use a mapper with RAM bank switching too... since it's just an emulator thing.

But in your case, you said you're trying to fit everything in 16kb of ROM, so 8 may be anough for your level.


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