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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:33 am 
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tokumaru wrote:
I'm not against having more options for file formats, only against the ignoring of well established standards (even if they're not perfect - nothing is perfect) in favor of a new one, in hopes of forcing people to use that.


The photoshop analogy is a bad one. There are lots of image formats because most have unique size, quality, or layer advantages. We're really only dealing with legacy popularity here.

We need to support recently dumped coprocessor roms (and multi-rom games in general) in a way that makes sense. And for NES, it shouldn't require file loading to see a game's mapper, rom sizes, chr presence, etc. We hide all that shit in a blob for... why exactly? Folders/archives make more sense and always have.

Furthermore, there are plenty of other emulators to use with old formats. So the discussion we really should be having is why THEY are so averse to supporting a newer format if it improves compatibility and makes basic rom information easier to see.

In your defense, I don't completely agree with what byuu has done either. I think using an internal database, even if it means having an unlicensed database, is a much better path to acceptance due to the natural volatility of trying to account for every mapping quirk in thousands of games. The NES bmls are already toast and getting changed to a scripting format. And I've also heard him say that he's not 100% happy with the SNES bmls either, so that's subject to change as well. I spent like... 100 hours preparing that NES library by hand because converters are GIGO with iNES files. And now I'll have to do it again mucking about in thousands of folders.

But I'm still happy with the structure and overall direction of the format. I think it's absurd that byuu takes any heat for doing this when we had games bugging out for like 15 years suddenly getting their coprocessor roms dumped. This should have been exciting stuff. Instead people were pissed that it made their old rom format obsolete when we were forced to account for multi-rom situations.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:00 am 
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Hey, I hate copier headers, trainers and the like as much as the next guy, but unfortunately, ROMs off the internet come that way. The only thing I don't want is to have to convert every file I download to one emulator's specific format, while keeping the original blob for the rest. Redundancy sucks, it's messy and just plain confusing.

As I see it, forcing users to accept a new format that only your software uses is intrusive and arrogant. I'm not against putting a new format out there, but instead of forcing people to use it, the format's superiority should be enough to convince people to use it. Forcing people to change their ways out of the blue only drives them away.

FitzRoy wrote:
I think using an internal database, even if it means having an unlicensed database, is a much better path to acceptance due to the natural volatility of trying to account for every mapping quirk in thousands of games.

My gripe with databses is homebrew. There must be an easy way for homebrewers to describe their own games.

Quote:
And now I'll have to do it again mucking about in thousands of folders.

Can you imagine how much more work that would be if you used multiple emulators for the same console, each with its own custom format?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:07 pm 
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tokumaru wrote:
FitzRoy wrote:
I think using an internal database, even if it means having an unlicensed database, is a much better path to acceptance due to the natural volatility of trying to account for every mapping quirk in thousands of games.

My gripe with databses is homebrew. There must be an easy way for homebrewers to describe their own games.

I think we solved in FitzRoy's old fc.zip/ZapFC. A homebrew game's folder or zipfile would contain a database entry representing just that one game.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:08 am 
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tokumaru wrote:
I'm not against putting a new format out there, but instead of forcing people to use it, the format's superiority should be enough to convince people to use it.


Deficiencies in old formats aren't large enough to affect popular games, ergo popular opinion. So what you're suggesting is impossible at this point. People looking for a quick fix have always downloaded ZSNES anyway, and that's fine.

You're basically contradicting yourself on the prior page, accepting that different emulators are good for different things, but only if the rom format stays universal. Sorry, but that's ridiculous. If a rom format's inability to accommodate multi-rom results in a broken game, then being the most compatible emulator necessitates changing the rom format. Is being the most compatible emulator a valid goal? Of course it is.

tokumaru wrote:
it's messy and just plain confusing.


Personally, I think trying to use an arsenal of emulators to dodge bugs is confusing. Speaking of confusing, it must have been awfully confusing for ips patches to have the success rate of a coinflip thanks to ZSNES "supporting" vitally important copier headers. Oops!

tokumaru wrote:
My gripe with databses is homebrew. There must be an easy way for homebrewers to describe their own games.


I would rather maintain an unlicensed internal db than dick with thousands of external files every time we realize we underestimated something. But that's just me.

tokumaru wrote:
Can you imagine how much more work that would be if you used multiple emulators for the same console, each with its own custom format?


No one is saying we shouldn't strive for standards, but higan is essentially the only active SNES emulator anymore. Pardon the lonely attempt at initiative.

tepples wrote:
I think we solved in FitzRoy's old fc.zip/ZapFC. A homebrew game's folder or zipfile would contain a database entry representing just that one game.


Yes, and we essentially did this for higan 0.94 (as folders) with each rom and board as its own file. But the board file was just referencing designations like iNES. So unlicensed boards would still have to be supported within the emulator. Naturally, we ran into the same problem as iNES. Pinout variations, oem discretes, and unlicensed discretes were too numerous to be given their own designations. So now there's talk of a scripting format.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:24 pm 
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I'm surprised nobody has brought up MAME yet.

FitzRoy wrote:
Speaking of confusing, it must have been awfully confusing for ips patches to have the success rate of a coinflip thanks to ZSNES "supporting" vitally important copier headers. Oops!

To be fair, IPS in itself should have never been used for the SNES in the first place since it was made with the assumption that ROM sizes would not be larger than 4MB (not that stupid of a decision: that's the limit on the Mega Drive without mappers, and only one licensed game ever was larger than that).


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