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Learning NES Limits, Pixel Art, & wat can & can not be done.
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Author:  Fjamesfernandez [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning NES Limits, Pixel Art, & wat can & can not be d

darryl.revok wrote:
Well, it would be a shame if it didn't happen. I for one was excited to see what you'd come up with. With that being said though, developing for NES can be a lot of work and it's not a project to undertake lightly. There's usually not as much possibility of monetary return either.

Have you ever thought about doing any of the programming yourself? Have you ever programmed before?


Nah I didn't take it lightly at all and no never programmed in my life :D editing scripts for FFXI Macros spellcast doesn't count. I just like focusing on one thing, and that's the artwork. To do both would be a pain in my ass. Though the person who made Axion Verge did it all himself but it helped that he already worked for a company and he didn't have to code in assembly programming language. Though I am a fast learner when I have hands on but even so.

If I do try to learn it would be off the spin off to start something small then work my way up on projects being that spriting isn't really a problem for me.

Author:  Drew Sebastino [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning NES Limits, Pixel Art, & wat can & can not be d

Evidence that many people can't handle both drawing artwork and programing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw8yq1ubQG0 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUH32GRqqHI

Author:  Fjamesfernandez [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning NES Limits, Pixel Art, & wat can & can not be d

Espozo wrote:
Evidence that many people can't handle both drawing artwork and programing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw8yq1ubQG0 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUH32GRqqHI


Can't or CAN? Just remember that everyone learn differently. a Programmer turn pixel artist would be a lot easier than a pixel artist trying to be a programmer I think. It all depends on the person. I know my limitations. I won't say that I wouldn't try.

Author:  Drew Sebastino [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning NES Limits, Pixel Art, & wat can & can not be d

Can't. Did you go more than a minute into Metal Slug 2? The game already runs at 30fps, so whenever it slows down (which it constantly does) it runs at 15fps, which is about the framerate of Starfox.

The second example (I think) isn't quite as bad. The programming is good in that there isn't any slowdown anywhere (not even a hint, unlike R-Type III, although it isn't very noticeable there) but the artwork, which is CG, isn't that great. The effects are nice in that there are many parallax layers and sprites and whatnot, but that doesn't necessarily have that much to do with the artwork. Many people will say that CG graphics never look as good as hand drawn graphics in 2D games, but all the DKC games look very attractive, aside for some weird artifacts around sprites as a result of the reduced color depth and resolution that could have been avoided by editing over them a bit, like what was done in Doom and Mortal Kombat with the digitized graphics.

Author:  darryl.revok [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning NES Limits, Pixel Art, & wat can & can not be d

Fjamesfernandez wrote:
being that spriting isn't really a problem for me.

Maybe someone with programming skill would be willing to trade you code for art.

Author:  Fjamesfernandez [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning NES Limits, Pixel Art, & wat can & can not be d

Well let see what happens. Talking won't solve anything. Doing does :D My ass won't sit here waiting for people to be interested. I'll keep doing what I've been doing. Trading art for code sounds cool because all in all. If i don't get paid for my artwork why should you get paid for your coding? Its a lot of work on both sides.

like someone said before. "We work to get paid not paid to do work"

Even if it doesnt make it to NES at first like Shovel Knight.

Author:  mikejmoffitt [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning NES Limits, Pixel Art, & wat can & can not be d

Espozo wrote:
Evidence that many people can't handle both drawing artwork and programing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw8yq1ubQG0 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUH32GRqqHI

Espozo wrote:
Can't. Did you go more than a minute into Metal Slug 2? The game already runs at 30fps, so whenever it slows down (which it constantly does) it runs at 15fps, which is about the framerate of Starfox.


This is foolish conjecture. We get it. You like Irem and don't like Metal Slug.

Author:  Fjamesfernandez [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning NES Limits, Pixel Art, & wat can & can not be d

Kinda funny because I dont see what those two got to do with anything I said about Spriting and coding at the same time :D A one man team. Only person I give props to like that is who I mention. Tom Happ for developing Axion Verge by himself.

Author:  DragonDePlatino [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning NES Limits, Pixel Art, & wat can & can not be d

I totally understand where you're coming from, Fjamesfernandez. I know how to sprite, compose and write, but learning how to program has been a huge hurdle for me. It's very difficult because you have to be good at abstract thinking. Unlike art or music, you don't get immediate feedback while you're working on a program. You have to work on it for a while, compile it, then hope everything works at runtime. It takes talent and it's just not something that comes naturally to most people.

So don't worry, I've heard your situation is pretty common. In game development, project leads are usually the artists/designers or composer/designers or writer/designers, right?

Author:  tepples [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning NES Limits, Pixel Art, & wat can & can not be d

I'm not sure what you mean by no immediate feedback. Pressing Save All (Ctrl+S) then Build and Run (Ctrl+R) is pretty instant for me, even on this dinky little single core Atom laptop running Xfce and FCEUX.

Author:  Drew Sebastino [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning NES Limits, Pixel Art, & wat can & can not be d

mikejmoffitt wrote:
This is foolish conjecture.

Somewhat of a joke, but okay.

mikejmoffitt wrote:
We get it. You like Irem and don't like Metal Slug.

I'm pretty sure you also realize that the first 3 Metal Slug games where made by Nazca that branched off of Irem when it went out of business. I have no reason to hate Metal Slug, because it's not like SNK bought out Irem or something. In fact, SNK had little to do with the original Metal Slug. I just feel like running a 2D game at 30fps and having it constantly slow down to 15 is a bit of a problem. Gunforce 2 (which I think was better, although it may not be as "professionally made") slows down to 30fps, but at least it's more justified and does it less. I think I've also shared my opinion about Super R-Type.

Quote:
Kinda funny because I dont see what those two got to do with anything I said about Spriting and coding at the same time :D A one man team.

Well, Rendering Ranger R2 was pretty much made by one man.

Author:  tepples [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning NES Limits, Pixel Art, & wat can & can not be d

In that case, perhaps Rendering Ranger makes all of us look bad if one man can finish a project of that scale by himself.

Author:  Drew Sebastino [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning NES Limits, Pixel Art, & wat can & can not be d

Pretty much. :lol: I think it took him about 4 years to make it though, but that's kind of expected. Just so you know, like the game proudly says, it was made by Manfred Trenz, a German game developer. I'm just stating that because he originally wanted the game to be released world wide but there was some sort of financial thing or something that prevented it and the game was only released on the SFC on 5,000 copies. It was supposed to use more traditional graphics, but he and the company he was working under felt pressured by the success of DKC.

With that much effort put into that game, I would have been more than upset to realize that my game would only have a very limited run in only Japan...

Author:  Fjamesfernandez [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning NES Limits, Pixel Art, & wat can & can not be d

Quote:
Unlike art or music, you don't get immediate feedback while you're working on a program.


Nope, though you can copy and paste what you are doing here for others to analyze it then you have to worry about someone saying you used his code without telling him/her. I'm only saying that because ive seen that said at Mugen Fighting Guide. People be bitching about stealing codes but never complain about using resources for sprites or frankenspriting.

Quote:
So don't worry, I've heard your situation is pretty common. In game development, project leads are usually the artists/designers or composer/designers or writer/designers, right?


Yup, normally a programmer itself don't have does things. They just know how to implement them :D

Quote:
In that case, perhaps Rendering Ranger makes all of us look bad if one man can finish a project of that scale by himself.


Yup thats a good kick in the face.

Quote:
Pretty much. :lol: I think it took him about 4 years to make it though


Hmm even so you did mention that he was working under a company. So I am sure he got some kind of help. Also its pretty easy as hell if you took the time to make 3D renders and just sprite over them. you dont have to worry about reference or anything being that its all laid there and again, I am sure he know already how to program. Take someone that never programmed in their life. you have a better chance to learn how to do pixel art than what you can do programming.

Author:  Drew Sebastino [ Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning NES Limits, Pixel Art, & wat can & can not be d

Well, actually I'm stupid. He didn't necessarily make the game by himself, but it's still impressive, although it kind of invalidates my statement...

Anyway, here are the credits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUH32GRqqHI&t=1h13m43s (The worst part is, I've beaten this game before...)

In other words, Made by Manfred Trenz... And a bunch of other people. :lol:

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