Honest box art

A place for your artistic side. Discuss techniques and tools for pixel art on the NES, GBC, or similar platforms.

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Pokun
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Re: Honest box art

Post by Pokun » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:14 pm

DRW wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:41 pm
Pokun wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:47 am
why would I lie about my own opinion of a matter that means little to anyone else?
I don't think you lie about your opinion in general. I just think that you twist the truth when you make it sound like you actually thought about Sudoku not having a plot. I'm pretty convinced that this discussion here is the very first time that you ever put those two things, Sudoku and story, together.

And why you should do this? Because people tend to create ad-hoc opinions on the fly to not lose a discussion.
...
Similar thing here: When I basically told you: "Don't be silly about the theme of Minesweeper enriching the experience. Do you also miss a story in Sudoku?", you pretended that, indeed, you do.
But I'm pretty sure that there was never a single moment in your life before our discussion when you actually thought: "Man, why can't Sudoku have a plot?"
Hence, up until now you didn't hold that opinion about Sudoku, simply because you never thought about it. Yet here you are, telling me that the missing story in Sudoku is an actual loss.

If that's really your opinion, tell me when you thought about this fact before our discussion? When did you ever see a Sudoku and thought: "So boring without a plot"? Because if those thoughts never crossed your mind in the past, then the statement that the missing plot is a loss for you is a clear lie: If you never thought about it, you obviously never missed it. And if you never missed it, you couldn't have felt this is a loss.
So, if you want to be convincing, explain me the situation in your life where you actually felt disappointment for Sudoku not having a plot.
I fully understand that people tend to create ad-hoc opinions just to not loose a discussion, and I'm certainly not someone who has never done that, especially in discussions when you are very upset, and it's all about feelings rather than reason.
But I think you are a bit obsessed what exact words I'm using, rather than trying to understand what I'm talking about.

Have I ever seriously thought about Sudoku being a theme-less game? Perhaps I have, it's not really an unlikely thought or anything, but I have no memory of it so I can't say I have. And I haven't said that I have, have I? Your question was clearly if I thought Sudoku being theme-less is a loss or not and I said it were. And that is basically the same thing I said in my first post so it's evidently not an on-the-spot-made-up-opinion.
After that you made-up an unlikely situation where I was sitting down in front of a Sudoku game looking at it and sighing, wishing it would have a good story. My answer to that is that you put that in my mouth yourself.

The reason I said you can believe what you want is really no other than that I was a little upset in that you didn't seem to believe me in a very trivial matter, and I'm sorry about that. I have a tendency to take it a little personal when people think I'm lying although I generally try very hard not to lie or involve personal feelings (doesn't always works), and I don't think myself that I'm showing a general tendency to lie or make up excuses either.

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DRW
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Re: Honest box art

Post by DRW » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:57 pm

Pokun wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:14 pm
Have I ever seriously thought about Sudoku being a theme-less game? Perhaps I have, it's not really an unlikely thought or anything, but I have no memory of it so I can't say I have. And I haven't said that I have, have I?
Well, I asked you specifically:
Does this mean you get less enjoyment out of it because the theme could be that you're bulding houses that have to stand next to each other in a visually pleasing way? Do you really consider it a loss that Sudoku doesn't pretend to be the story about a city planner?
And you answered:
Of course it's a loss. I already said I even like to imagine Backgammon pieces to be living creatures that moves, and the fox game is really about foxes and sheep and so on.
I explicitly asked about your enjoyment of the game and asked whether you get less enjoyment out of it because of the missing storyline.

So, yes, you did try to bullshit the opinion that you consciously thought about this specific instance, instead of saying: "Yeah, alright, I never missed a plot in Sudoku in practice, true."
How can you affirm loss in your enjoyment in the game when you never actually thought about it?

If someone brings to my attention the hypothetical situation of a soda can having a built-in clock, I wouldn't call the non-existence of this a loss, just because the mathematical formula soda can + watch > soda can is true. Especially wouldn't I say "Of course it's a loss" when he sarcastically asks me: "Do you seriously want to tell me you enjoy your soft drink less just because the can doesn't tell the time?"

On the other hand, if someone asks me: "Do you seriously care that Luigi is a palette swap of Mario in "Super Mario Bros. 3" and "World"?", I can straight up say: "Yes, definitely." Because I actively thought about it on some accasions: Why didn't they give Luigi his own sprite after SMB2 had established his now canon look? Those things actually went through my head somewhere in 2008 or so, it wouldn't be an ad-hoc stance.
My game "City Trouble": www.denny-r-walter.de/city.htm

Drag
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Re: Honest box art

Post by Drag » Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:10 am

You all know what bikeshedding is, right?

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DRW
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Re: Honest box art

Post by DRW » Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:23 am

Bikeshedding only seems to refer to wasting time on unimportant details instead of concentrating on the actual main issue.
Since we don't have a main issue here that needs to be solved and is hindered by our meta discussion, I don't see a problem.


In fact, this discussion has probably more real-life relevance than the topic of honest videogame box art: The unwillingness of people to acknowledge that an opponent might have a point in even the simplest and most straightforward issues:

Person A:
"Minesweeper's story is irrelevant for the gameplay. In "Donkey Kong" or the boardgame "Risk", the story and setup is important for the atmosphere and for the mechanics, but Minesweeper is just an abstract number game."

Person B:
"I think the story is important, even for Minesweeper."

Person A:
"Oh come on! Really? You really imagine that you're defusing bombs when you play it? So, in reverse conclusion, the fact that Sudoku doesn't have some pseudo-story is something that actually takes away from your enjoyment of the game?"

Person B, honest answer:
"Yeah, o.k., no it doesn't really. I never looked at Sudoku and thought: "Man, if this game just had a story, I would like it so much more." And yeah, if Minesweeper was just called "Neighboring Numbers" and the bombs were just an X, I would probably play it exactly as many or as few times as now."

Person B, answer based on the credo "Never acknowledge an argument":
"Yes, yes, it actually does. You got it. That's exactly how I feel. Sudoku is genuinely less interesting if I can't imagine the numbers to be something in a story. I really do wish Sudoku was called "Motorcycle Match", even if the game was still just numbers in a box. The fact that it's not is an actual loss."
My game "City Trouble": www.denny-r-walter.de/city.htm

Pokun
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Re: Honest box art

Post by Pokun » Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:30 am

No Drag is right, you are just wasting time on incredibly stupid details. You were trying to trap me in your word games and now are trying to make me admit I was making up my opinion on the spot (which is a futile attempt since I didn't make it up).

DRW wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:57 pm
Pokun wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:14 pm
Have I ever seriously thought about Sudoku being a theme-less game? Perhaps I have, it's not really an unlikely thought or anything, but I have no memory of it so I can't say I have. And I haven't said that I have, have I?
Well, I asked you specifically:
Does this mean you get less enjoyment out of it because the theme could be that you're bulding houses that have to stand next to each other in a visually pleasing way? Do you really consider it a loss that Sudoku doesn't pretend to be the story about a city planner?
And you answered:
Of course it's a loss. I already said I even like to imagine Backgammon pieces to be living creatures that moves, and the fox game is really about foxes and sheep and so on.
What is the problem you see here? I'm just saying that Sudoku gives me less enjoyment because it's a theme-less game (which is true). I never said Sudoku should have been about city planning or whatever. I wasn't saying that I had thought of Sudoku not having a story either. You were trying to drive the discussion in a certain direction so you could trap me in this word game, but I'm not going in that direction. Besides I find it irrelevant to the discussion.

Even if it's true that I haven't imagined the exact silly scenario involving Sudoku that you painted up doesn't mean I have never thought about this kind of stuff before (which I have). Only I can know that of course, but I'm not finding it very implausible for anyone else than you to have thought about these things before.

Drag
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Re: Honest box art

Post by Drag » Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:51 pm

DRW wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:23 am
Bikeshedding only seems to refer to wasting time on unimportant details instead of concentrating on the actual main issue.
Since we don't have a main issue here that needs to be solved and is hindered by our meta discussion, I don't see a problem.
A thread that otherwise would've had creative discussion has more or less been killed by a back and forth between a person frantically trying to prove a point to an unknown audience and another person repeatedly dropping hints that they don't want to participate in the unexpected argument.

To put this situation honestly as box art, the scene would be a single person planting a "Victory!" flag in the center of a garden while unaware of all the flowers they stepped on to get there. ;)

Hmm... now there's a game idea. :P

coto
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Re: Honest box art

Post by coto » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:52 pm

Pokun wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:30 am
No Drag is right, you are just wasting time on incredibly stupid details. You were trying to trap me in your word games and now are trying to make me admit I was making up my opinion on the spot (which is a futile attempt since I didn't make it up).
This shows you are still constructing a reply based on some kind of harrasment message + relying on other opposite views as the thread goes, where have I seen that... ah yeah the social media responses, yuck. DRW is trying to deconstruct that intent while explaining how it works. But somehow got sidetracked by ad hominem... "stupid" responses.

So yeah your "stupid" responses are doing nothing to keep the thread on topic anyway. Just saying.

Pokun
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Re: Honest box art

Post by Pokun » Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:16 pm

You are right. As Drag said I've been trying to avoid the discussion all this time, but I'm not immune to DRW's attacks and can't just drop it, so it will probably go on forever.

Really there was never any reason for a discussion from the start. I just mentioned my silly little opinion on one trivial thing, which probably doesn't matter to anyone else but me, and suddenly I'm here having to defend that I wasn't making that opinion up. What's wrong with people?

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DRW
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Re: Honest box art

Post by DRW » Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:25 pm

Pokun wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:30 am
I'm just saying that Sudoku gives me less enjoyment because it's a theme-less game (which is true).
[...]
I wasn't saying that I had thought of Sudoku not having a story either.
And that's the whole contradiction: You can't remember ever actually thinking about Sudoku being a story-less game. And yet, the missing story totally gives you less enjoyment: Bullshit ad-hoc opinion.

Drag wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:51 pm
A thread that otherwise would've had creative discussion
Yeah, because without my posts, the thread would have been full of on-topic posts instead of dying anyway.
And people didn't post anyhing because internet forums are just like verbal discussions: If someone is constantly talking, you can't raise your own voice. And if I write posts here, people are physically unable to write their own posts, right?

Drag wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:51 pm
and another person repeatedly dropping hints that they don't want to participate in the unexpected argument.
The worst way of communicating that you don't want to argue is to constantly formulate counter arguments, you know?
Did I put a gun at Pokun's head and force him to keep writing six replies with an average of 10 lines per post?

Let me demonstrate to you both what it looks like if someone decides that he doesn't want the discussion anymore. For this, please check what my further posts in this thread look like:
My game "City Trouble": www.denny-r-walter.de/city.htm

Pokun
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Re: Honest box art

Post by Pokun » Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:50 pm

It sounds like you will probably ignore all posts from now on, but I'll answer this one anyway.

DRW wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:25 pm
Pokun wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:30 am
I'm just saying that Sudoku gives me less enjoyment because it's a theme-less game (which is true).
[...]
I wasn't saying that I had thought of Sudoku not having a story either.
And that's the whole contradiction: You can't remember ever actually thinking about Sudoku being a story-less game. And yet, the missing story totally gives you less enjoyment: Bullshit ad-hoc opinion.
OK so this is the point of the misunderstanding I think. I meant that I've probably haven't thought about Sudoku in particular, but that doesn't mean I've never thought about the subject before. My answer was always about the subject in general, and Sudoku was only used as an example that you bought up. If being theme-less hurts games in general, it would naturally affect Sudoku as well even if I've never even played it. I don't find that contradictory in any way.

tepples
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Re: Honest box art

Post by tepples » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:05 pm

So how can we swing this back to what appears on the front cover and the label?

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