Famicom homebrew: Kira Kira Star Night

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koitsu
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Re: Famicom homebrew: Kira Kira Star Night

Post by koitsu »

Bregalad wrote:Too bad I'm at work and can't listen to the music but once I'll be at home I'll check it out !
It doesn't matter how simple the game is, if there is good graphics (for the NES) and good music it'll be better than most home-brews so far !
Mapper #2 = MMC2
Cough cough....
*laugh* I thought UxROM was #6! Dammit!

See, point proven. :-) I've updated the post to simply link to the mapper list on the wiki.
hally
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Re: Famicom homebrew: Kira Kira Star Night

Post by hally »

> - hally meant "mapper #4" not MMC4 -- this is an easy/common mistake, lots of people make it, so don't feel bad! :-) People assume the INES mapper numbers correlate 1:1 with MMC numbers, which isn't the case: List of INES mappers

Oopse! Thanks for your follow-up, and I'm sorry to everybody for my confusing post...
Kira Kira Star Night comes with a thick booklet including development journals by the game planner Riki himself, and it mentions the early version of the game used MMC5. He had to move to mapper 4 because at first it contained plain (i mean super large) logged sound data that was too huge even for MMC5 and farther more the mapper didn't run on many Fami-compatibles and emulators.

> Nice work, it's super catchy. Do you have a soundcloud or some link with more of your music?

Here's my soundcoud accout:
https://soundcloud.com/haruhisa-hally-tanaka
though I put only one song (with some remixes) here for now.

I've composed for the Famicom/NES since 2003 and many of my songs are available at various websites.
Here're some of my early works:
http://2a03.tctd.us/NSF/H/hally/

> I feel like since you speak English (assuming you're Japanese?? no American could have composed that, haha) your brain has to be picked. Who is the main character? Is it some well known character, or was she made originally just for the game? And how did all the artists come together to create it? How did you get involved?

The main character is named Fami-chan, designed by Riki himself just for the game. At the early development Riki contacted me via my friend. At that time I was too busy to do everything by myself and decided to introduce Bun, Robokabuto and Tappy to Riki as some of the best Famicom musicians in Japan (I know Chibi-Tech of course, but this time I wanted to pick up other talents who were not widely known).

Last but not least... Although the game might look simple, the level design is pretty well-conceived. I'm sure it's not a disappointing game and really want to see any good way to be sold outside Japan.

* oopse again... my soundcloud account was wrong. fixed.
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OneCrudeDude
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Re: Famicom homebrew: Kira Kira Star Night

Post by OneCrudeDude »

Hey Hally, I've noticed that you're using 2ch's quoting system with the > arrows. Here in the USA, specifically on 4chan, it's referred to as >greentexting. ;) Anyhow, this comment aside, I have a few questions.

In the videos, it seems like there are many stars in a single scanline, but there is no flickering. Is this because of emulator settings, or did the programmers use special tricks to avoid flicker as much as possible? If you don't know what I'm getting at, the Famicom has one large flaw in that it can only display 8 8*8 or 8*16 pixel tiles in a horizontal line without either flickering, or disabling them. If the programmers did use special techniques, then those guys must be magicians!

Speaking of programmers, who programmed this game? I don't want personal information, I want to know if you searched for and hired various hobby programmers. If so, would there be plenty of programmers looking for a job?

Finally, the music is among the most advanced I've ever heard from an NES game, be it an official title or a homebrew game. What tools did you use for the music? Did you program the music in hexadecimal all by yourself, or did you make this in Famitracker, and had the programmer(s) decode it into 6502?

Listening to the music, it kinda reminded me of "Artificial Intelligence Bomb" by NARUTO, making me think he did the music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gtGeZ2wOmo

Finally, would the cartridge purchase for $200 also include the $30 disk and books? I personally think this would be a good deal, and I would buy it immediately if that was the case. If not, I'm not too crazy about spending $230 if I want both the FC cart and the other stuff that's much cheaper. Oh, and will the cartridge be complete with a box and booklet?
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koitsu
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Re: Famicom homebrew: Kira Kira Star Night

Post by koitsu »

First and foremost, here are some sites/links to look at that contain pictures of stuff (since I imagine most can't read Japanese):

* http://iharadaisuke.hatenablog.com/entr ... /17/170805
* http://ponrevival.blogspot.com/2013/08/blog-post.html
* http://www.bit-games.com/?pid=62275650
* http://d-stage.com/shop/detail.php?seq=44711

Yes they're in Japanese, but the pictures should give you some insights as well -- it gives some pictures of the book and mentions some of the things I'm stating below. Otherwise just Google for the Japanese name of the game and dig around a bit, you'll find all sorts of stuff to look at, even if you can't read the text.

Onward ho!

1. Good question. If what's shown in the video is the PC-running-an-emulator version, then it should be noted that the emulator used is a heavily modified version of VirtuaNES (many features are removed, you can't load other ROMs, etc. -- this is confirmed/factual, not speculative); as such it may have VirtuaNES's "No-limit sprites" option enabled (this is speculative). Riki would probably know.

2. hally's one of the games' (many) musicians. All the musicians in fact are fairly well-known. Riki, as I understand it, is the individual who did the programming. I don't know if Riki speaks English or not, and I will tell you right now machine translation of English->Japanese is often very wrong.

3. I imagine each musician did the music in their own way. However, as my initial post says, the audio/effect library used in the game is the NSDL, which tends to focus heavily on MML. MML is extremely prevalent in the Japanese community.

4. There were many/multiple musicians involved in this game. If you watch the Youtube video at the 1:25 mark onwards you'll see the names of the composers.

5. The cartridge purchase and the digital EXE/CD/book purchase are separate. If you want both, then you need to pay ~22980 yen (~US$230). Here's a Twitter picture (from Riki) showing more or less what you get (you can see the cart, and the book (what's called doujinshi) as well as the CD). I believe it was available for initial purchase at Comiket 86 which happened a few days ago. I believe right now preparations are being made to make the game available for purchase online or through some retailers.

And because I'm certain someone will ask it: I can't speak for Riki but it's extremely uncommon for international sales to occur, so you would need to use a third-party service to do the purchase for you, or know someone in Japan who could act as a middle-man for you. I want to be clear: this is an extremely common thing in Japan universally, and if anyone in this thread starts bitching/crying about it I will lock the thread immediately. Different cultures/countries are different: respect it or GTFO. (Yes I am quite militant about my feelings on this :P)

6. No idea if there is a game manual (what you call "booklet") and case/sleeve that comes with the cart. I should be clear: most commercial Famicom games did not come with cases/sleeves, they simply came in little cardboard boxes with plastic holders.

I would urge you to dig through Riki's Twitter and look at lots of the Kira Kira Star Night posts since many have pictures.

I want to take the opportunity here to mention that there is an amazing amount of Famicom development going on in Japan in general, and has been for decades now. The main reason people in other countries don't hear about it is because of the language barrier. And that's a real bummer, because there's a lot of duplicate work/effort going on, and it'd be fantastic to combine both knowledge from the East and West (if you will). I hope during my lifetime I'll have the chance to see that happen.
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OneCrudeDude
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Re: Famicom homebrew: Kira Kira Star Night

Post by OneCrudeDude »

What I meant by case was indeed the little plastic tray most FC games come in. And I find it strange that this game has literally dozens of composers, unless some were the actual composers and others were the programmers. I guess finding musical talent in Japan must be either really cheap or really easy, maybe both. ;)

I was hoping the $200 bundle would've been a large box release that includes everything, as I like completeness, but seeing as they're mutually exclusive, I'll take the cart. As for international orders, I think the $200 price would give them second thoughts about the overseas market.

I wonder if former NES programmers, like the guys at SunSoft, lurk around in the Japanese NES development scene. They're likely out of a (programming) job, so I doubt screwing around with NES games like they did 30 years ago would be bad, if anything it'd be a nostalgia trip and a hobby.

This might be the link to the Western and Eastern NES scene we've been waiting for! Also, am I the only one who sees that Japanese homebrew games are fundamentally different than our own? For example this game, all you do is jump around and collect stars. Blade Buster, all you do is fly around and shoot things. Mr. Splash is a simple sports game. It seems like they stick with one idea, but refine it as much as humanely possible.
Last edited by OneCrudeDude on Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
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blargg
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Re: Famicom homebrew: Kira Kira Star Night

Post by blargg »

tokumaru wrote:
koitsu wrote:the next time I announce something of this sort, I will be sure to lock the thread immediately once created.
Why, is criticism forbidden now?
I think the point was at a higher level, covering different kinds of energies people bring to a discussion. The one that is out to find flaws in things I think was being pointed out. The twist that it's not actually MMC5 is entertaining.
I felt like it was important to note that, to me, this feels more like an art showcase (pixel art and music, the strong points of this program) than an actual game, because the gameplay itself doesn't look very elaborate.
I'm assuming that the goal is to catch every star, which means that the patterns and motions of the stars have design behind them, and that it's only noticeable if you carefully follow or play the game.
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Bregalad
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Re: Famicom homebrew: Kira Kira Star Night

Post by Bregalad »

And that's a real bummer, because there's a lot of duplicate work/effort going on, and it'd be fantastic to combine both knowledge from the East and West (if you will). I hope during my lifetime I'll have the chance to see that happen.
I plan to release the game project I've worked the most on in both English and Japanese, so maybe it'll be a step in this direction ? However I haven't made serious progress since 3 years now, I only tweaked things there and here. (it's as if I was afraid to continue the work).

Also, the language barrier is not the only thing. I bet half of active members of Nesdev doesn't have English as their native language.
since I imagine most can't read Japanese
I can read hiragana and katakana and the major part of 1st year kanjis very slowly. (that being said I will never understand more than 0.5% of a random japanese text)

And I agree with tokumaru, critism shouldn't be forbidden and the game looks quite boring, like those iPhone or whathever games where you just have to collect things again and again. Good for killing time I guess but not really something to write home about.
They're likely out of a job, so I doubt screwing around with NES games like they did 30 years ago would be bad, if anything it'd be a nostalgia trip and a hobby.
Why would they ? It's not Greece we're talking about :roll:
slobu
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Re: Famicom homebrew: Kira Kira Star Night

Post by slobu »

The $200 price is a little worrying. Is the classic gaming infrastructure that much worse in Japan? I thought we were on the brink of relatively inexpensive flash based boards for homebrewers.
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OneCrudeDude
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Re: Famicom homebrew: Kira Kira Star Night

Post by OneCrudeDude »

Might have something to do with the fact that there's 54 people involved at least, all apparently musicians.
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Re: Famicom homebrew: Kira Kira Star Night

Post by sonder »

OneCrudeDude wrote:Might have something to do with the fact that there's 54 people involved at least, all apparently musicians.
The CD version only costs $30.
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blargg
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Re: Famicom homebrew: Kira Kira Star Night

Post by blargg »

Haha
slobu wrote:The $200 price is a little worrying. Is the classic gaming infrastructure that much worse in Japan? I thought we were on the brink of relatively inexpensive flash based boards for homebrewers.
See price skimming. The authors might be attempting to support themselves, which requires charging more than production cost of the cartridge.
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Bregalad
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Re: Famicom homebrew: Kira Kira Star Night

Post by Bregalad »

That's something that always bugged me.

If you really wanted to make a bunch of brand new PCBs, insert them in brand new cases, print a professional quality looking box and manual and cartridge sticker, handle the distribution costs, and do a decent (50%) margin on the retail price with low quantity production (<100 copies) it's not surprising it costs $200. Especially if you pay the artists.

This is why I've always been septical about making homebrew cartridges. It would be extremely hard to make them at a decent price, and if they are too expensive, nobody will buy them, which makes you make a smaller production batch which results in an even larger price per copy.

Of course one *could* take the risk to produce 1000+ copies resulting in a smaller price and hope people buy them, but it's very risky.

(PS : Sorry for being off - topic)
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sonder
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Re: Famicom homebrew: Kira Kira Star Night

Post by sonder »

Bregalad wrote:That's something that always bugged me.

If you really wanted to make a bunch of brand new PCBs, insert them in brand new cases, print a professional quality looking box and manual and cartridge sticker, handle the distribution costs, and do a decent (50%) margin on the retail price with low quantity production (<100 copies) it's not surprising it costs $200. Especially if you pay the artists.

This is why I've always been septical about making homebrew cartridges. It would be extremely hard to make them at a decent price, and if they are too expensive, nobody will buy them, which makes you make a smaller production batch which results in an even larger price per copy.

Of course one *could* take the risk to produce 1000+ copies resulting in a smaller price and hope people buy them, but it's very risky.

(PS : Sorry for being off - topic)
I think that the passion for doing it overrides any risk at that small a quantity (and yeah I think that's small - there are way more people in the world desiring to buy new NES games than I think you think)

You could kickstart the production costs and then you'd have customers already lined up. This would be almost guaranteed to work if the game is finished and good. This is my plan, anyway. :D
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Re: Famicom homebrew: Kira Kira Star Night

Post by 3gengames »

100 quantity is more than enough to make PCB's and Labels DIRT cheap. I'm talking $2 each for NROM Boards, and then $2 per label...vinyl....die cut.
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Re: Famicom homebrew: Kira Kira Star Night

Post by tepples »

Bregalad wrote:Of course one *could* take the risk to produce 1000+ copies resulting in a smaller price and hope people buy them, but it's very risky.
Which is why I see INL-ROM v2 as so important to the future of NESdev. INL manufactures 1000+ blank cartridges, and they're programmed with games as needed. It'd be like the later days of GBA homebrew, where one could buy a bunch of $10 Fire Linker carts and put a game on those.
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