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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 8:04 pm 
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Edit: This thread was split from another. It will be used to discuss the development my pong clone.
you can get the original game from here


Because of the trademark/copyright issues I have to change certain things in game. I have a few ideas on how I want to do it, but I'm open to any ideas or suggestions. It would also be helpful if you mentioned your likes and dislikes in it's current from.



here's my reply to tepples and the rest:
About pong 198x. I didn't realize it would be a problem, title - first ideas. pawng, pongo, Ping-Pong, or ping.

Some of the gfx are based off some memorable nes ones, but they were meant to be. I was going for something like Nintendo use to do( and still do) like having samus and link in Tetris. Or the numerous cameos Mario made, like the ref in mpto and tennis. The sprites were based off of official sprites but I edited all in someway and didn't use the correct pallete.

Some of the music is based off of the music from games but I didn't use any nsfs or sheet music. All played or programmed by me in famitracker by ear. I just copied the first 5 or 6 notes of certain memorable themes or songs. They're probably the wrong notes, key or tempo.

last the control. I actually researched different solutions for the controls and physics. I actually read a good paper that compared the different control and physics of different games(wish I could find it now). It was like the evolution of pong controls. The early ones handle the physics kind of like me. The ball bounces off the paddle the same wherever it hits. Imagine a billiard ball bouncing off a wall at a 45 degree angle it should bounce off the same every time. You shouldn't be able to change the angle of deflection(unless you turned the paddle)

Later games rounded the corner of the paddle and changed the angle of deflection if you hit it with edge of the paddle. That gives the player a little more sense of control. I experimented with having a button that moves the paddle forward and hits the ball earlier. but didn't include it. That would have given a button for the player to mash.

I thought the control was pretty good, but I'm sure I have the most practice, a lot of testing. I think it is fun when it gets fast paced and frantic. bet I can get 20-30 hits without missing one.
I guess I could have the ball start at a slower speed. it gradually increases the more hits you get.
And the gimmicks definitely have a pattern and are fairly predictable.

Sorry for the long reply, and sorry for not participating much. I should have made a thread and asked for some feedback.

I can make whatever changes are needed. If there's room and you guys want it - I'd like to see it on the cart. not sure what fair use covers in this parody but I can make 100% original assets and replace any existing problems easily.


Last edited by DrDementia on Sat May 24, 2014 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 8:23 pm 
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About the pong game:
It is unfortunately a legal mine field. When Nintendo and other big corperations are completely invested in the concept and enforcement of "intellectual property", I fear that even the defense of parody and homage is not enough.

of course It's easy to write around trademarks, and trying to guesstimate how pixels or bytes to change to not violate copyrights, but really the best course of action is 100% original assets as much as you can.

I'm not an authority on the matter, but If you still want to reference some culture, maybe try some of the homebrew games from the first volume of Action 53, there'll be fewer objections, and the authors are easier to reach to make sure.

Edit: Additionally I think continuing to reference Action52 could work because that's a piece of crap that no one cares about.


Last edited by JRoatch on Wed May 21, 2014 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 8:46 pm 
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43110 wrote:
An old shareware Multimedia Fusion game named Ballmaster 2.

Cool I might check it out to see what inspired Sliding Blaster.

43110 wrote:
If you still want to reference some culture, maybe try some of the homebrew games from the first volume of action 53, there'll be fewer objections, and the authors are easier to reach to make sure.


That's a interesting idea I didn't think of. like tipping my hat to other HB guys, with their permission of course. They might like the idea of their character making a cameo in a different game.
Might be better if I go 100% original though.

oh and where did the sound in the intro of action 53 come from?

Quote:
Edit: Additionally I think continuing to reference Action52 could work because that's a piece of crap that no one cares about.

edit: So the quality of the game determines what can be ripped off? oops I mean parodied :)


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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:04 pm 
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DrDementia wrote:
oh and where did the sound in the intro of action 53 come from?

well what do you know I learn something new every day, it's a drum break called Yeah! Woo!.
This post makes so much more sense now.

DrDementia wrote:
edit: So the quality of the game determines what can be ripped off? oops I mean parodied :)

Because it's funny just by existing.

(this may be going off topic a bit.)


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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:15 pm 
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43110 wrote:
well what do you know I learn something new every day, it's a drum break called Yeah! Woo!.
This post makes so much more sense now.



sounds like the original action 52 to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlYj_vlTuNo

43110 wrote:
(this may be going off topic a bit.)

Kind of goes back to parody in my mind.

Mods can break these comments into a "pong 198x" thread if they want.


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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 6:58 am 
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Play testing that I never got a chance to boil down to a numeric score:

<Pino> not enough time to react to a service
<Pino> no english (affect direction of ball based on relative position or velocity vs. racket)
<Ryan> too gimmicky
<Ryan> speed up too abrupt
<Ryan> liked trails
<Pino> Let's go play ZapPing to compare
<Ryan> Are you kidding me? (after losing several points in a row due to inability to react to service from center)
<Ryan> Just a distraction-filled version of Pong
<Nova> Jingles for characters need volume changes

DrDementia wrote:
Some of the gfx are based off some memorable nes ones, but they were meant to be. I was going for something like Nintendo use to do( and still do) like having samus and link in Tetris.

The sort of cameos you see in Tetris for NES and Tetris DS are possible only because Nintendo owns copyright in those characters.

DrDementia wrote:
Some of the music is based off of the music from games but I didn't use any nsfs or sheet music.

Copying by hand is still copying.

DrDementia wrote:
It was like the evolution of pong controls. The early ones handle the physics kind of like me. The ball bounces off the paddle the same wherever it hits.

I don't remember how Magnavox's Odyssey handled bouncing, but I know Atari's clone (Pong) divided each player's paddle into eight segments, each with its own angle of return.

DrDementia wrote:
You shouldn't be able to change the angle of deflection(unless you turned the paddle)

Or unless the paddle is moving when the ball hits it.

DrDementia wrote:
I guess I could have the ball start at a slower speed.

That and have the serve come from the opponent's baseline rather than the net. Think of where serves in tennis, table tennis, and air hockey start.

DrDementia wrote:
I thought the control was pretty good, but I'm sure I have the most practice, a lot of testing.

Perhaps giving a bit of acceleration to the paddle, so that it starts slow for precise movement but quickly speeds up to where the paddle can cross the screen fairly rapidly. Mostly I'm looking for "What makes this game distinct from ZapPing, which was in the first volume?"

43110 wrote:
If you still want to reference some culture, maybe try some of the homebrew games from the first volume of Action 53

If you want, I can try to make higher-resolution drawings of Podge and Daffle from ZapPing and Milo and Staisy from Thwaite so that you can draw sprites. You might be able to hit up user "PMComics" on deviantART for drawings of the Concentration Room opponents.


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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 9:29 am 
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thanks for splitting the thread, I added a link to the first post. And thanks tepples for the constructive criticism. I'm not replying to each right now.

Quote:
<Pino> not enough time to react to a service

maybe I need to slow the ball down at first or work on the paddle controls.

Quote:
<Pino> no english (affect direction of ball based on relative position or velocity vs. racket)

This relates to something tepples said. You maybe right, but early ones didn't have english either. I guess player control and fun should top priority.

Quote:
and have the serve come from the opponent's baseline rather than the net. Think of where serves in tennis, table tennis, and air hockey start

That does make sense, but check out ralph baer's 1969 version of ping pong - the ball starts in the middle. I saw other examples of this too. The main reason I did it was to have the ball get served randomly to either side to keep the player on their toes.

Quote:
Perhaps giving a bit of acceleration to the paddle, so that it starts slow for precise movement but quickly speeds up to where the paddle can cross the screen fairly rapidly.

Might be good idea, I'll experiment with that a bit.
But take tennis for example I'm not sure you can run to the other side of the court, some returns should be just out of reach.

Quote:
Mostly I'm looking for "What makes this game distinct from ZapPing, which was in the first volume?"
I checked out Zapping, the thing that made that unique was that it could be controlled with the zapper. But the control seemed weird to me, the paddle speed too fast, which relates to the last reply. The paddle movement needs to be smooth so accerlation may be a good idea


I'm going to remove the gimmicks and work on the controls. I'll probably upload a bare bones version later. I want to get the gameplay and core pong physics dialed in. And get an idea of what you guys find fun and frustrating.

Please check out the original, and let me know if you have any ideas or suggestions.


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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 9:39 am 
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Quote:
The main reason I did it was to have the ball get served randomly to either side to keep the player on their toes.

You could try serving twice to one side, then twice to the other side, like in table tennis.

Quote:
But take tennis for example I'm not sure you can run to the other side of the court, some returns should be just out of reach.

That's also why serves in tennis and table tennis have to be diagonal, from one quadrant to the other.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:54 am 
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here's an updated version of my game. I'm calling it v1.1. I'd like for you guys to test it out and comment.
I changed the style of the 1 player game. I broke the game itself into mini objectives. That progressively teach the mechanics and gameplay to the player.

changes:
Removed all Nintendo sprites, and gimmicks associated.
Broke the player paddle into 8 segments for collisions, and deflection angle is determined by where the ball hits.
Added a acceleration variable for the P1 paddle.
Created the mini challenges for the one player game.

todo:
Add acceleration and 8 segment collision to 2p paddle.(2p still uses the old system )
Chose title and fix title screen (Right now I think "Ping Pong Challenge")
More challenges?
Finish music/sfx


Any ideas or suggestions are welcome, I'll try not to shoot them down too fast.


Attachments:
pong-v1-1.zip [8.54 KiB]
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:39 am 
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I played 1.1. Control has noticeably improved. I passed the first three goals (5 touches, 10 touches, 10 touches with faster ball), but the CPU opponent scored on me before I could pass the fourth (score on the CPU opponent). Then it never got fast again, and the CPU opponent never made a mistake. I was hoping I could confuse the CPU opponent with multiple bounces, but of the eight segments, none appear to produce an extreme enough rebound angle to cause the ball to bounce off both walls.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:44 pm 
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tepples wrote:
I played 1.1. Control has noticeably improved. ... the CPU opponent never made a mistake. I was hoping I could confuse the CPU opponent with multiple bounces, but of the eight segments, none appear to produce an extreme enough rebound angle to cause the ball to bounce off both walls.


hey thanks for playing and responding, a little feedback definitely helps.
I absolutely agree the cpu ai is too difficult. I have a variable to dumb down
the ai, and I was planning on changing it when you have to score on the cpu. Then have the cpu play good when your trying to volley the ball. I think I'm going to take it a step further and change the ai randomly during play of certain challenges or something.

Not sure if I'm happy with the angles yet. I'll take your comment into consideration.

Also anybody have any opinion of the 2 player mode. Should it just be regular pong(like it is now), or should both players do the challenges? That could work since the players would have to work together to complete the challenges, might be fun.

lastly, anybody have any ideas for challenges?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:02 pm 
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The Name "Tennis For Two" would work and I don't think there is a trademark on it or at least
not one that could be justified as that is a pretty common phrase.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:39 pm 
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But there already was a Tennis for Two video game... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_for_Two

...in 1958!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:06 pm 
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I suggest "TenNES".


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:52 am 
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Myask wrote:
I suggest "TenNES".

Isn't that the name of the program that runs on the CIC?


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