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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:47 am 
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FrankenGraphics wrote:
incidentally, bug could mean that in english too, Bug = bother, not only as a verb but also a noun. You have it in bogeyman, hobgoblin (letter reversion), and the modern-time invented D&D monster Bugbear. Compare to low-german bögge (equivalent to hobgoblin/goblin).
Yes and Trouble Bug is a funny name. Although in Japanse mushi, a word that are normally used for small animals like insects, worms, snails and sometimes spiders, actually refers to a person in this saying. Ojama is the bother part.

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Yes because Luigi wore red clothes during the time when the "Donkey Kong" games took place:
Haha I never thought that Luigi was in Donkey Kong Jr. I just thought it was some random colleague helping Mario and happened to look alike. So in that case player 2 in Donkey Kong could actually be Luigi and not some parallel universe created for the multiplayer purposes? They both can save Pauline separately but I think they could do that with Peach in several SMB games as well.

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(Luigi is the left one.)
How do you know who are who?
Edit: OK I just checked the intro in mame and the right one ends up standing where Mario stands in when the game starts (unless they swap positions during the screen transition just to confuse everyone).


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:54 am 
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Pokun wrote:
Haha I never thought that Luigi was in Donkey Kong Jr. I just thought it was some random colleague helping Mario and happened to look alike.

That was most definitely the case, but for retroactive story purposes, declaring him to be Luigi is probably the best thing.

Pokun wrote:
So in that case player 2 in Donkey Kong could actually be Luigi and not some parallel universe created for the multiplayer purposes?

Nope. Two player mode is still just two instances of the same story. Otherwise you also have to invent a second Donkey Kong Junior.
Also, the NES verson of the first game called the number of lives "M", for "Mario". It doesn't switch to "L" for the second player.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:03 pm 
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It could be that the other Mario look-a-like turned into Luigi in Mario Bros when they needed them to have unique sets of colours in order not to confuse players who are who. Luigi didn't even get his name until NOA came up with it for Mario Bros and Miyamoto heard of it and accepted it.

Yeah that doesn't really work with Donkey Kong Jr or Donkey Kong 3 (unless Stanley has a twin).


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:14 pm 
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FrankenGraphics wrote:
While it is a risk to the popularity of a release, the emergence of a few tate mode nes titles might encourage emulator maintainers to go in that direction.
Ask and you shall receive:
Attachment:
rotateddisplay.png
rotateddisplay.png [ 263.69 KiB | Viewed 386 times ]
Not quite finished yet but it was simple enough to implement, though I don't expect to fix every little detail (e.g screenshots aren't going to be in the correct orientation because the rotation is done in hardware, etc.). Filters, scaling and aspect ratio options work correctly, which seems good enough for this.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:13 pm 
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Awesome job, Sour!
How's the input lag in Mesen?

Usually I'd recommend Nestopia to people, as it's the most lag-free NES emulator I've tried, and with the level some people are playing Donkey Kong, even the tiniest bit counts. Would be cool to recommend one that actually supports the orientation. :P


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:35 pm 
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Retroarch has a rotation option (in the Video menu, but only if you enable advanced options in the User Interface menu), and it has a Nestopia core.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:49 pm 
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Sumez wrote:
How's the input lag in Mesen?
I couldn't really tell you - I never tried to measure it, and I don't tend to notice these kind of things too much. I've seen people on random forums say that Nestopia & Mesen both have low input lag (compared to some other emulators), but that's about all I can say.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:14 pm 
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Sumez wrote:
Usually I'd recommend Nestopia to people, as it's the most lag-free NES emulator I've tried

Unless you enable vsync. Then the lag is really noticeable. I know that because I noticed the lag before I even knew that something like input lag exists.

This doesn't have anything to do with the emulator, though, but with Direct3D. I made extensive tests and found out that Direct3D with vsync has input lag where DirectDraw doesn't (or at least it's much less).

The way I checked this:
I mapped one of the buttons to Shift Lock.
Then I held a camera with a 60 fps recording function in front of the screen, so that it records the screen and the keyboard at once.
I press the Shift Lock key to make Mario in "Super Mario Bros." jump. Then I check the video.
Since pressing Shift Lock is mapped to an LED on the keyboard, I can count the number of frames from the LED lighting up to the moment Mario jumps on screen.
This way, I can measure the difference in input lag between different configurations. And Direct3D in fullscreen with vsync always loses against the other configurations.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:48 pm 
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How much is variable, but vsync is absolutely bound to cause input lag, no way around that. I would never enable it on an emulator designed to emulate a system that sends progressive signals to a CRT screen. :) I didn't even realise Nestopia had it.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:57 pm 
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In non-scrolling games, this is not so much a problem, but if you play "Super Mario Bros." without vsync, you always have a stripe moving from the top to the bottom when you move.
That's the reason why I never use emulators for actually really playing games, only for trying stuff out.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:54 pm 
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It's called "tearing".


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:57 pm 
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DRW wrote:
I mapped one of the buttons to Shift Lock.
Then I held a camera with a 60 fps recording function in front of the screen, so that it records the screen and the keyboard at once.
For fun, I tried this (with a 30fps camera and an IPS monitor - so a terrible setup) and couldn't see any difference between FCEUX, puNES or Mesen (with or without vsync). Couldn't test on Nestopia since it doesn't let you map buttons to any of the caps/num/scroll lock keys. In almost all the jumps I recorded, there's a 3-frame delay between the caps lock LED & mario jumping on the monitor (so ~100ms delay since video is at 30fps). Not the most reliable results, but at the very least, it seems like all 3 emulators perform very similarly on my setup.

I finished up the rotate feature. In the end I did it in software, so it should work properly everywhere (screenshots, avi recording, etc).
If anyone feels like trying it, there's a Windows-only build here: download
The rotation option is in Options->Video->Advanced

Sumez wrote:
How much is variable, but vsync is absolutely bound to cause input lag, no way around that
At the very least, video output in Mesen occurs in a separate thread, so vsync might slightly delay the image being shown on the monitor, but it won't have any actual impact on the emulation itself.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:46 pm 
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Sour wrote:
For fun, I tried this (with a 30fps camera and an IPS monitor - so a terrible setup) and couldn't see any difference between FCEUX, puNES or Mesen (with or without vsync). Couldn't test on Nestopia since it doesn't let you map buttons to any of the caps/num/scroll lock keys. In almost all the jumps I recorded, there's a 3-frame delay between the caps lock LED & mario jumping on the monitor (so ~100ms delay since video is at 30fps). Not the most reliable results, but at the very least, it seems like all 3 emulators perform very similarly on my setup.

The problematic issue comes when you use a Direct3D-based emulator in fullscreen. Windowed mode seems to be fine, but you don't really want that for serious play, would you?
And fceux is DirectDraw-based anyway. (And their vsync doesn't looks as clean as the Nestopia or MAME one.)
So, yeah, try out the fullscreen version with an emulator where you know it's Direct3D and see how it adds three additional frames of lag.

My test emulator was MAME. This one lets you switch between DirectDraw and Direct3D.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:03 am 
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I'd rather want windowed mode than three extra frames of input lag for "serious play". Three frames is a LOT.

Sour wrote:
In almost all the jumps I recorded, there's a 3-frame delay between the caps lock LED & mario jumping on the monitor (so ~100ms delay since video is at 30fps). Not the most reliable results, but at the very least, it seems like all 3 emulators perform very similarly on my setup.

Don't take this personally, but 100ms input lag is beyond awful for playing any kind of action game. :) No one would accept it.

I think it's very likely that you have some sort of common source of lag in your setup that affects all three emulators though, most likely the monitor.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:22 am 
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The game looks great. I hope that soon there is some emulator that allows to modify the screen orientation to play games like this.

EDIT: I just saw that "Sour" has already done something with the source code of the MESEN emulator. :beer:

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