Port NES/Famicom game to Nintendo VS. hardware possible? (Punch-Out)

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bytestorm
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Port NES/Famicom game to Nintendo VS. hardware possible? (Punch-Out)

Post by bytestorm » Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:10 am

Hello all :)
I have seen some posts and projects about playing Nintendo VS games on regular NES, but nothing about the opposite.
Is there any chance that a regular NES game would be hackable to be used on a Nintendo VS. pcb?

I would truly love to play Famicom punch out (gold and mtpo) on my Nintendo VS. pcb..

Seeing that the opposite seems possible, would there be any chance for this?
(I know that mtpo is availible om playchoice10 cart, but I dont have that system (and they have reduced the cutscenes and stuff because of the timer?))

Thanks for your time!

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bytestorm
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Re: Port NES/Famicom game to Nintendo VS. hardware possible? (Punch-Out)

Post by bytestorm » Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:32 am

EDIT: OOOh found a tool in that can remove headers, split prg/chr AND output the relevant CHR/PRG bin files to burn with eprom burner for Vs. Hardware!!! Holy smokes.. this might be what I am looking for :D. Wonder how the palette will be thou?.. I have VS. Smb and VS. Golf hardware.. guess ill have to try it out :D

These 2 are the ones I can test with.

RP2C04-0002
MAME's source claims that Castlevania, Mach Rider (Endurance Course), Raid on Bungeling Bay, Slalom, Soccer, Stroke & Match Golf (both versions), and Wrecking Crew require this palette.

000,750,430,572,473,737,044,567,700,407,773,747,777,637,467,040
020,357,510,666,053,360,200,447,222,707,003,276,657,320,000,326
403,764,740,757,036,310,555,006,507,760,333,120,027,000,660,777
653,111,070,630,022,014,704,140,000,077,420,770,755,503,031,444

RP2C04-0004
MAME's source claims that Clu Clu Land, Excitebike (Japan), Ice Climber (both versions), and Super Mario Bros. require this palette.

430,326,044,660,000,755,014,630,555,310,070,003,764,770,040,572
737,200,027,747,000,222,510,740,653,053,447,140,403,000,473,357
503,031,420,006,407,507,333,704,022,666,036,020,111,773,444,707
757,777,320,700,760,276,777,467,000,750,637,567,360,657,077,120

I have also seen that there are hacks for the VS. games to be used with any ppu.. So might be possible to edit the palette data in the rom even to match one of these?

EDIT 2: ouch.. the rom file is to big and the maximum (12) prg/chr files are exceeded when splitting :/..
hmm...

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bytestorm
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Re: Port NES/Famicom game to Nintendo VS. hardware possible? (Punch-Out)

Post by bytestorm » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:10 am

I now see the problem.. The game will need a daughterboard with the mmc 2 and possibly some logic.
I will check the NES schematics and VS. ones to see what could be needed, if its possible to figure out.
The MMC 2 will be in TTL for the prototype I think, if I get that far, since I dont know how to use cplds yet :S

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Re: Port NES/Famicom game to Nintendo VS. hardware possible? (Punch-Out)

Post by Goose2k » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:05 am

I recently ported my game From Below to the Vs System, so I am happy to help where I can (although I am quite novice myself).

http://vs.frombelowgame.com

As you mentioned I think the MMC2 mapper is going to be a big problem as I assume no daughter boards exist for it (given that punch-out was the only game that used it from what I know).

The second issue, as you have found, is that palette mapping. I have posted the mappings I used for Vs. From Below here: http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?p=260764#p260764

I am not sure how difficult injecting that into the ROM will be (in the case of From Below I have the source code, and I already was using a lookup table for fades, so the conversion was simple).

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Re: Port NES/Famicom game to Nintendo VS. hardware possible? (Punch-Out)

Post by Goose2k » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:07 am

You might also want to talk to this guy:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/NESmake ... 0138677307

He successfully ported his NESMaker game to the Vs. System using a Dr. Mario daughter board (I believe) Castlevania daughter board.

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Re: Port NES/Famicom game to Nintendo VS. hardware possible? (Punch-Out)

Post by lidnariq » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:59 am

Most NES games can run fine on the Vs. System as long as...
1- They don't use extra cart RAM or a mapper with registers in the $4020-$5FFF region
2- They run on a mapper that someone already made a daughterboard
3- They can operate fine with fixed 4-screen nametables
4- The person with the physical Vs. System has a 2C03 PPU, and the game doesn't use the $2D or $3D greys
5- The game is running on the primary side of the arcade board instead of the secondary side.

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bytestorm
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Re: Port NES/Famicom game to Nintendo VS. hardware possible? (Punch-Out)

Post by bytestorm » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:04 am

lidnariq wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:59 am
Most NES games can run fine on the Vs. System as long as...
1- They don't use extra cart RAM or a mapper with registers in the $4020-$5FFF region
2- They run on a mapper that someone already made a daughterboard
3- They can operate fine with fixed 4-screen nametables
4- The person with the physical Vs. System has a 2C03 PPU, and the game doesn't use the $2D or $3D greys
5- The game is running on the primary side of the arcade board instead of the secondary side.
Hmm I am not sure about point 1,3,4(usage of $2D or $3D greys) regarding Punch-Out to be honest.

I was planning to cad a daughterboard for it if I can figure out all the connections, and include the mmc2 in ttl as Farid found.(I saw that you were active in that thread too, and krzysiobal posted a schematic).
http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php? ... 2&start=30

Just bought a PO cart also to compare the connections from the cart to the cpu/ppu in the NES. :)

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bytestorm
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Re: Port NES/Famicom game to Nintendo VS. hardware possible? (Punch-Out)

Post by bytestorm » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:07 am

Goose2k wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:05 am
I recently ported my game From Below to the Vs System, so I am happy to help where I can (although I am quite novice myself).

http://vs.frombelowgame.com

As you mentioned I think the MMC2 mapper is going to be a big problem as I assume no daughter boards exist for it (given that punch-out was the only game that used it from what I know).

The second issue, as you have found, is that palette mapping. I have posted the mappings I used for Vs. From Below here: http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?p=260764#p260764

I am not sure how difficult injecting that into the ROM will be (in the case of From Below I have the source code, and I already was using a lookup table for fades, so the conversion was simple).
Yeah regarding how to edit the ROMs palette I have no idea.. I guess ill try to figure out if that table is originally stored somewhere in the rom so that I could hexedit it or something? This forum is full of nes hacking wizards so hopefully someone can point me in the right direction when I get that far :)

Really cool of you to release a game for the VS. system by the way :D I wish I had those kind of programming skills haha :)

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Re: Port NES/Famicom game to Nintendo VS. hardware possible? (Punch-Out)

Post by Goose2k » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:59 pm

bytestorm wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:07 am
Goose2k wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:05 am
I recently ported my game From Below to the Vs System, so I am happy to help where I can (although I am quite novice myself).

http://vs.frombelowgame.com

As you mentioned I think the MMC2 mapper is going to be a big problem as I assume no daughter boards exist for it (given that punch-out was the only game that used it from what I know).

The second issue, as you have found, is that palette mapping. I have posted the mappings I used for Vs. From Below here: http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?p=260764#p260764

I am not sure how difficult injecting that into the ROM will be (in the case of From Below I have the source code, and I already was using a lookup table for fades, so the conversion was simple).
Yeah regarding how to edit the ROMs palette I have no idea.. I guess ill try to figure out if that table is originally stored somewhere in the rom so that I could hexedit it or something? This forum is full of nes hacking wizards so hopefully someone can point me in the right direction when I get that far :)

Really cool of you to release a game for the VS. system by the way :D I wish I had those kind of programming skills haha :)
It looks like @dougeff actually did a few Punch-Out hacks, include palette changes. He might be willing to give some pointers?

http://forums.nesdev.com/memberlist.php ... ile&u=7008

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bytestorm
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Re: Port NES/Famicom game to Nintendo VS. hardware possible? (Punch-Out)

Post by bytestorm » Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:20 pm

Goose2k wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:59 pm
bytestorm wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:07 am
Goose2k wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:05 am
I recently ported my game From Below to the Vs System, so I am happy to help where I can (although I am quite novice myself).

http://vs.frombelowgame.com

As you mentioned I think the MMC2 mapper is going to be a big problem as I assume no daughter boards exist for it (given that punch-out was the only game that used it from what I know).

The second issue, as you have found, is that palette mapping. I have posted the mappings I used for Vs. From Below here: http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?p=260764#p260764

I am not sure how difficult injecting that into the ROM will be (in the case of From Below I have the source code, and I already was using a lookup table for fades, so the conversion was simple).
Yeah regarding how to edit the ROMs palette I have no idea.. I guess ill try to figure out if that table is originally stored somewhere in the rom so that I could hexedit it or something? This forum is full of nes hacking wizards so hopefully someone can point me in the right direction when I get that far :)

Really cool of you to release a game for the VS. system by the way :D I wish I had those kind of programming skills haha :)
It looks like @dougeff actually did a few Punch-Out hacks, include palette changes. He might be willing to give some pointers?

http://forums.nesdev.com/memberlist.php ... ile&u=7008
Awesome!! Thanks :D

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Re: Port NES/Famicom game to Nintendo VS. hardware possible? (Punch-Out)

Post by lidnariq » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:25 pm

bytestorm wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:04 am
I was planning to cad a daughterboard for it if I can figure out all the connections, and include the mmc2 in ttl as Farid found.(I saw that you were active in that thread too, and krzysiobal posted a schematic).
The 74'670s in that board are scarce and expensive nowadays. It might actually be cheaper to design a board that accepts PlayChoice or NES carts instead.
bytestorm wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:04 am
Hmm I am not sure about point 1,3,4(usage of $2D or $3D greys) regarding Punch-Out to be honest.
On the bright side, the NES version of MMC2 is safe for point #1. Can't say about any of the other things, though.

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Re: Port NES/Famicom game to Nintendo VS. hardware possible? (Punch-Out)

Post by bytestorm » Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:27 am

lidnariq wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:25 pm
bytestorm wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:04 am
I was planning to cad a daughterboard for it if I can figure out all the connections, and include the mmc2 in ttl as Farid found.(I saw that you were active in that thread too, and krzysiobal posted a schematic).
The 74'670s in that board are scarce and expensive nowadays. It might actually be cheaper to design a board that accepts PlayChoice or NES carts instead.
I found them on mouser actually for 2€ ea so its not that bad, but yeah, a cpld would be better.
Designing a board that takes famicom carts would not be a bad idea either but then the palettethingy would present a bigger challange perhaps?
bytestorm wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:04 am
Hmm I am not sure about point 1,3,4(usage of $2D or $3D greys) regarding Punch-Out to be honest.
On the bright side, the NES version of MMC2 is safe for point #1. Can't say about any of the other things, though.

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Re: Port NES/Famicom game to Nintendo VS. hardware possible? (Punch-Out)

Post by lidnariq » Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:17 pm

bytestorm wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:27 am
lidnariq wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:25 pm
The 74'670s in that board are scarce and expensive nowadays. It might actually be cheaper to design a board that accepts PlayChoice or NES carts instead.
I found them on mouser actually for 2€ ea so its not that bad, but yeah, a cpld would be better.
That's rather expensive, but at least you "only" need two.

Then again, for 4 EUR you can get a nice CPLD and 3V translation and not have to buy any other parts also.

Designing a board that takes famicom carts would not be a bad idea either but then the palettethingy would present a bigger challange perhaps?
Yeah, if you don't have a 2C03 your only option is ROM hacking.

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bytestorm
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Re: Port NES/Famicom game to Nintendo VS. hardware possible? (Punch-Out)

Post by bytestorm » Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:27 pm

lidnariq wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:17 pm
bytestorm wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:27 am
lidnariq wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:25 pm
The 74'670s in that board are scarce and expensive nowadays. It might actually be cheaper to design a board that accepts PlayChoice or NES carts instead.
I found them on mouser actually for 2€ ea so its not that bad, but yeah, a cpld would be better.
That's rather expensive, but at least you "only" need two.

Then again, for 4 EUR you can get a nice CPLD and 3V translation and not have to buy any other parts also.
Certainly the "best" choice, but since I dont really know how to use them just yet, ill try and get the prototype working first I think.
lidnariq wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:17 pm
Designing a board that takes famicom carts would not be a bad idea either but then the palettethingy would present a bigger challange perhaps?
Yeah, if you don't have a 2C03 your only option is ROM hacking.
Would the UA6528 be suitable for this perhaps?? :D
https://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Use ... _revisions

EDIT: never mind that one.. noticed its not an RGB ppu ;(

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Re: Port NES/Famicom game to Nintendo VS. hardware possible? (Punch-Out)

Post by tepples » Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:09 pm

Could one use a 2C02 + NESRGB to build a makeshift 2C03?

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