Zap Ruder: The Zapper test ROM project

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tepples
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Re: Zap Ruder: The Zapper test ROM project

Post by tepples » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:34 pm

I have found X coordinates too noisy on my NTSC NES to be of any real use.

General advice: remove 7 cycles from each loop and reduce the subpixel addition to $90 instead of $AA.

zzo38
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Re:

Post by zzo38 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:39 pm

tepples wrote:The big thing I'm missing at the moment is how to make the CPU opponent play fair. Right now it plays nearly perfectly despite using a controller.
I would like to have the option to allow it to stay as it is if wanted (possibly push SELECT before the game starts, when it is asking players?), as well as a display of the total number of times the ball bounce, just in case you want to play both sides by yourself (I sometimes do this, with this game) or to have a meaningful score against the perfect opponent.
[url=gopher://zzo38computer.org/].[/url]

FrankWDoom
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Re: Zap Ruder: The Zapper test ROM project

Post by FrankWDoom » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:38 pm

finally sat down with this to check it out last night after not having any zappers or crt's at the same time forever. really neat stuff to play around with. it's pretty impressive how accurately the gun can track on the Y axis.

I have a standard zapper and a camerica video blaster to play with. they both perform similarly on the tests. on the Y axis test, the video blaster actually has a much smaller "height" value - the indicators are overlapped. thought that was cool

one issue I have identified is the handling of "firing". playing standard duck hunt, pulling the trigger past the first click "loads" the shot, and releasing the trigger (either by letting the trigger return, or pulling it past the second click) actually fires the shot. this is analogous to the counter starting and stopping on the trigger game.
the video blaster actually has to be cocked before the trigger can be pulled.

wherever firing is used for some action on the test cart, it seems to be registering immediately rather than upon release. not so much an issue here, but I was trying out a vs. duck hunt on-a-cart hack and it's using the same behavior. again this is fine with the zapper since pulling the trigger usually means you want to shoot something.

the video blaster is different - it has a working hammer that has to be cocked before the trigger can be pulled. on this gun, setting the hammer "loads" the shot, like pulling the zapper trigger halfway. pulling the trigger releases the hammer, and with regular duck hunt, this is when the gun fires. however on the test cart and the vs duck hunt hack, the gun fires when cocking the hammer (very early, whenever it gets far enough to register). not much of an issue on the test cart, but on vs duck hunt, or if someone were to create a new zapper game like this, the game is unplayable with the video blaster. which is unfortunate because it's awesome.

lidnariq
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Re: Zap Ruder: The Zapper test ROM project

Post by lidnariq » Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:41 pm

To make sure I'm understanding you correctly:
* Zapper behavior: trigger reads true after partial press until 5 frames after release or full pull
* Video blaster behavior: trigger reads as true when cocked, false after fired
?

FrankWDoom
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Re: Zap Ruder: The Zapper test ROM project

Post by FrankWDoom » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:08 pm

lidnariq wrote:To make sure I'm understanding you correctly:
* Zapper behavior: trigger reads true after partial press until 5 frames after release or full pull
* Video blaster behavior: trigger reads as true when cocked, false after fired
?
right. I don't know about the exact timing of when the system is notified, but that's the general logic of it. the hammer on the video blaster is the actual trigger, and the "trigger" is just a manual release lever. I can take a crappy phone video if you want to see the test cart responding to both guns.

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Re: Zap Ruder: The Zapper test ROM project

Post by lidnariq » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:54 pm

Nah, no need. Your confirmation of my restatement is good enough.

tepples
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Re: Zap Ruder: The Zapper test ROM project

Post by tepples » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:31 pm

Now the problem becomes how to detect X the right way, treating the screen as a 4-bit Gray coded position encoder with one bit per frame. Is this too much of a seizure trigger?
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lidnariq
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Re: Zap Ruder: The Zapper test ROM project

Post by lidnariq » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:22 pm

I briefly tried a version of that test with using binary instead of grey code.
The problem I had was that the gun would move enough from vblank to vblank such that there was noticeable error in the (successive approximation ADC) that was this technique.

When I kept my hand fairly still it worked.

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rainwarrior
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Re: Zap Ruder: The Zapper test ROM project

Post by rainwarrior » Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:28 pm

Just in case anyone else is looking for the Zap Ruder ROMs (cause the links in this thread are dead), the 0.03 version is available on tepples' site here:
https://pineight.com/nes/

tepples
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Re: Zap Ruder: The Zapper test ROM project

Post by tepples » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:31 pm

Is Podge punching your ass at ZapPing no matter how you shake the Zapper?

Git gud or Git out. pinobatch/zap-ruder

tepples
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Re: Zap Ruder: The Zapper test ROM project

Post by tepples » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:17 pm

This is a repack of v0.03 with no substantive code changes.
  • Rebuild with Python 3 and recent ca65
  • Move audio subroutine names into Pently namespace
  • Move binaries from repository to release
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ruder-0.03a.zip
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calima
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Re: Zap Ruder: The Zapper test ROM project

Post by calima » Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:29 am

I tested this with the Hyperkin zapper and a LCD. As expected, pretty much only the "how long did you hold the trigger" test worked.

In addition to the lag, seems the expectations on what is considered light change. Y-pos detection is fairly useless anyway when your TV has a lag of 5-10 frames.

edit: And oh geez, that gif above is a massive seizure trigger. Block it out and change to a link, please.

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Re: Zap Ruder: The Zapper test ROM project

Post by nocash » Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:45 am

That gif displays vertical ||| bars , I am just wondering if diagonal /// bars would work better.

The idea is that the sensor can probably see something like 5-10 scanlines, let's say that the bars are repeating each 6 scanlines, then (Y mod 6) would indicate whether the sensor was triggered on the right..left end of the bar.
Of course, even if 5-10 lines are visible, the 15kHz filter might require continous light in 2-5 scanlines, so that might ahrink the visible window size (and requires bars that output light in continous lines).

Another idea, to disguise the flickering: one could do a full screen flicker for the coarse position, then flicker only the required screen area while narrowing down the exact position. That way it might even look like a wanted smoke cloud effect.

While light gun reading is technically interesting, most actual light gun games are either extremely dumb, or promoting real life gun use, or both : /
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