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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:01 am 
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Realizing this may not be generally known and that it shouldn't be hidden on the 3rd page of the 2nd "nesdev designs" thread:

Western Design Center offers a C compiler/optimizer and ASM assembler/linker, among other tools, for free (except for commercial use on non- WDC/WDC licensed processors). I should probably also repeat their statement that the toolchain isn't for reverse-engineering their products even though that kind of goes without saying, since that's their subsistence.

http://www.westerndesigncenter.com/wdc/tools.cfm

You need to register as a user in order to download the full version, but that's it. Should be neat for anything (w)65C02 / 65C816 related.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:58 am 
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Link to "that thread": viewtopic.php?p=199814#p199814.

Does Ricoh 5A22 use WDC IP? I wonder if it qualifies for commercial development.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Great stuff, thanks for sharing!

Looking forward to reports on how well it performs.

EDIT: Am I dense, or how are the tools actually downloaded..?

The link from the OP goes to a page with two links under WDC tools.

The first "You can register and download at WDC65xx.com." http://65xx.com/65xxcelr8r-overview/download/ gives a 404.

And the button "register and download today" is a good link http://wdc65xx.com/wdctools-download-2/ but only gives the warning about downloading the tools, and then a link to a contact form if seeking commercial license.

No where on any of these sites could I find a place to register.. Maybe it's just down temporarily? Tried a couple different browsers with same results..

EDIT 2: Went ahead and filled out the contact us form explaining my confusion for lack of better options. Promptly contacted by support team and provided link to actual registration page: http://wdc65xx.com/WDCTools Which once filed out sends you an email back to the "download-2" page which ends up getting properly populated with a "click for free download" button which worked no problem.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:05 am 
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The NES's cpu is not WDC licensed I believe, and most people here are doing commercial development anyhow. Plus those are Windows-only.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:33 am 
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Compiling lists of "Notable Applications" from wiki:

65C02
Home computers
-Apple IIc portable by Apple Computer (NCR 1.023 MHz)
-Apple IIe by Apple Computer (1.023 MHz)
-BBC Master home/educational computer, by Acorn Computers Ltd (2 MHz 65SC12 plus optional 4 MHz 65C102 second processor)
-Replica 1 by Briel Computers, a replica of the Apple I hobbyist computer (1 MHz)
-Laser 128 series clones of Apple II
-KIM-1 Modern Replica of the MOS/CBM KIM-1 by Briel Computing


Video game consoles
-Atari Lynx handheld (65SC02 @ ~4 MHz)
-NEC PC Engine aka TurboGrafx-16 (HuC6280 @ 7.16 MHz)
-GameKing handhelds (6 MHz) by Timetop
-Watara Supervision handhelds (65SC02 @ 4 MHz)

Other products
-TurboMaster accelerator cartridge for the Commodore 64 home computer (65C02 @ 4.09 MHz)
-Many dedicated chess computers i.e.: Mephisto MMV, Novag Super Constellation, Fidelity Elite and many more (4–20 MHz)


65C816
Acorn Communicator
Apple IIGS (edit: platinum edition only)
C-One Reconfigurable Computer (standard CPU/RAM card)
Super Nintendo Entertainment System (the console's Ricoh 5A22 CPU is based on the 65C816)
Nintendo SA-1 (a co-processor chip used in several SNES game cartridges; based on the 65C816)


Beside those, they're still used in industrial and medical applications. There's also a handful of obscure "build your own computer" kits and pcb designs.

Of course, this doesn't answer if Ricoh (or Hudson) had a license. Would they get away with doing the modification trick more than once (the 6502)?

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Last edited by FrankenGraphics on Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:03 am 
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FrankenGraphics wrote:
65C02
Home computers
[bq]-Apple IIe by Apple Computer (1.023 MHz)

Hmmm. Isn't only the Enhanced IIe (the one that could display those funny mousetext characters and I think it existed as an upgrade kit and also released alone) using 65C02? The non-enhanced IIe clones I had been using (which were supposed to be 100% identical to the real ones) only used the original 6502.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:02 am 
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The Apple IIc, enhanced Apple IIe, and platinum Apple IIe use the 65C02.

The Super NES was manufactured at the start of the era of exclusive rights in "mask works," so I consider it far more likely to have been duly licensed.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:03 am 
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Hm. In that case, wikipedia must be slightly wrong (or at least not very precise), as is often the case. I guess that'd make it fall into the same category as the listed BBC computer.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:21 am 
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While I had the attention of the WDC rep I decided to ask if the 6502 in the NES/famicom was considered a WDC core and they said yes. So if there's a reasonable way to get around the fact the tools to don't support the 6502, WDC doesn't see the NES/famicom as requiring license for commercial projects.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Nice! I happened to send a question on the Hudson and SNES derivates earlier, so they might be wondering what the commotion is right now :lol:

Yeah, that's a tough one. Even if one'd manage to disable the compiler/optimizer using non-present opcodes, addressing modes and decimal mode, it probably wouldn't be too optimal anymore.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:38 am 
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The 6502 pre-dates WDC and hence is a MOS/CSG design.

The 2A03 is a pirate illegal chip ;) but based on the MOS/CSG design.

There is a
WDC 65C02
Ricoh 65C02
which have different instructions

CSG 65CE02
CSG 8502
CSG 4502

HuC6280 seems to be Ricoh 65C02 based


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:07 am 
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Sounds like useful for the SNES, but for the NES not so much as it doesn't seem the tools supports the NMOS 6502.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:08 pm 
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At least the assembler can still be used for NES, it has a 6502 argument for the CHIP directive. No HuC6280 support though, not that I expected it...

There's a brief mention of Nintendo development, the Intelligent Systems ISX format and SNES mapping modes in the assembler manual.

I guess now we finally have a 65x assembler that can do proper zero/direct page stuff, like moving the runtime direct page location and force absolute or long addressing in page 0.


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