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 Post subject: Re: New SuperGrafx demo
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:35 pm 
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Shiru wrote:
Like it was said above, there was about 6 games released for the system.

So you were not talking about the regular TG16? You answered tepples' question about the regular TG16. If it's just the SuperGrafx that has this many sprites there's not much point in using them for an extra background layer, since there are already 2 of them.


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 Post subject: Re: New SuperGrafx demo
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:51 pm 
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This thread is about SuperGrafx, I'm talking about SuperGrafx. I didn't notice that tepples said 'regular', because I didn't expect him to say that in answer to my post about SuperGrafx.

The main difference between TG16 and SuperGrafx is that SG has two VDP instead of one, so two BGs and two sprite layers.


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 Post subject: Re: New SuperGrafx demo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:32 am 
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The SuperGrafx is a cool console, but the Genesis is still the more powerful system (barring sheer sprite numbers.)

The main problem is that developers really had no confidence in the system and nobody except for first-party companies (Hudson, NEC Avenue) made dedicated games for it. The bicompatible game did the following to pay lip service to using the SGX's extra power:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: New SuperGrafx demo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:27 am 
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Just watched a video of Darius Plus on YouTube and the foreground layer built with sprites looks pretty bad. When it has to fill the entire screen, the flickering looks weird (since a full screen worth of pixels isn't enough to fill the whole screen because of scrolling). YT videos don't run at 60fps though, so it might look better on the actual console.


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 Post subject: Re: New SuperGrafx demo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:45 pm 
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Darius Plus runs on both the PCE (with all sprites running on only one VDC) and on the SGX (with the aforementioned shield and shots running on the SGX's extra VDC). Those YouTube videos might be showing the worst-case PCE situation.

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 Post subject: Re: New SuperGrafx demo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:32 pm 
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I did find other videos where the flickering was absent, as far as I could tell. Still I wouldn't use this as an example of good graphics... So many available palettes on that system, yet everything looks so monochromatic. Another thing that caught my attention is how objects have very few animation frames. This console could do so much better!


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 Post subject: Re: New SuperGrafx demo
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:38 am 
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That's because the arcade version was just like this.

At least they cared to stuff in additional huge bosses into Super Darius (the original CD version that did not feature flicker reduction enhancement with the SG) so that you have a different boss in each area, which was awesome. Darius Plus, which was released later, was unfortunately a Hucard, so those additional bosses had to be cut.


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 Post subject: Re: New SuperGrafx demo
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:21 am 
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Not exactly SuperGrafx related, but a video showing off sprites + dynamic tiles + Hsync interrupt for parallax and multilayered effects:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQX8KfYT-zc

And some SGX related videos (no demos do this yet, but it's fairly easy stuff):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75IdGO1I1o4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N4xgkwm154
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dVFfrfvmeY


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 Post subject: Re: New SuperGrafx demo
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:23 pm 
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tomaitheous wrote:
Not exactly SuperGrafx related, but a video showing off sprites + dynamic tiles + Hsync interrupt for parallax and multilayered effects:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQX8KfYT-zc

Wow, this is much more impressive graphically than Darius Plus, and that's without the SuperGrafx hardware!


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 Post subject: Re: New SuperGrafx demo
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:29 pm 
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In the first transperency video, you explained that the 2 VDPs have windowing registers, (like the SNES does) so that makes sense for 1 shade of transparent color, but what about the 3rd video with the light shining through the window?


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 Post subject: Re: New SuperGrafx demo
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:49 pm 
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tokumaru wrote:
tomaitheous wrote:
Not exactly SuperGrafx related, but a video showing off sprites + dynamic tiles + Hsync interrupt for parallax and multilayered effects:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQX8KfYT-zc

Wow, this is much more impressive graphically than Darius Plus, and that's without the SuperGrafx hardware!


Lords of Thunder is a great game for showing off the PC-Engine and Super CD format. Though it makes me wonder just how much more they might have accomplished if the SuperGrafx had been included in the DUO hardware. Ofcourse it would have been too costly but if it hadn't been, that would have been a neat system. It would have been able to display more sprites than any of its competitors except I suppose NeoGeo. Plus the SuperGrafx had extra RAM which combined with the Super CD card's RAM could have helped a bit more before the Arcade CD card came along.


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 Post subject: Re: New SuperGrafx demo
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:20 am 
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MottZilla wrote:
tokumaru wrote:
It would have been able to display more sprites than any of its competitors except I suppose NeoGeo.

Well, both the SNES and SuperGrafx can show a total of 128 sprites...

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 Post subject: Re: New SuperGrafx demo
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:21 pm 
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psycopathicteen wrote:
In the first transperency video, you explained that the 2 VDPs have windowing registers, (like the SNES does) so that makes sense for 1 shade of transparent color, but what about the 3rd video with the light shining through the window?


The SGX has priority settings for the four layers of the two video outputs: BG0, SPR0, BG1, SPR1. The chip that mixes the two outputs of the video controllers can set priority to the sprite layers in relation to the BG layers (but cannot change the BG layer priorities; they're fixed). I have a sprite on VDC1 (the top video layer) that is "low priority". That means it will be drawn behind all BG pixels of VDC1, but show out in the transparent pixels of the BG layer (like any other system of that era). VDC0 has the same sprite in the exact same position underneath the sprite in VDC1, but with a different palette associated to it. The VDP (priority controller) is setup in a configuration (1 of 4 settings) so that the sprites are like so: 'spr0,bg0,'spr1,bg1,*spr0,*sp1. ' = low priority, *= high priority. VDC1 sprites always have a higher priority than VDC0 sprites. But when VDC1 low priority sprite passes in front of VDC1 BG, it disappears (on a pixel basis) allowing VDC0 sprite to show underneath. Given that the SGX has the inherent number of supalettes of the PCE (32 subpalettes), it's pretty easy to create alternate colored palettes for transparency effects like that without running short of subpalettes.


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 Post subject: Re: New SuperGrafx demo
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:30 pm 
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ccovell wrote:
MottZilla wrote:
tokumaru wrote:
It would have been able to display more sprites than any of its competitors except I suppose NeoGeo.

Well, both the SNES and SuperGrafx can show a total of 128 sprites...


Oh, I was under the assumption that the PC-Engine could display close to the amount of sprites as the SNES. I guess I should have looked up the details. I knew the SNES was something like 32 sprites and 34 cells per scanline. I guess I was just expecting more of out the SuperGrafx since I thought close to SNES, doubled.

Actually that just got me thinking that I was thinking more about sprites per scanline rather than total sprites. Which wins out in total sprite pixels per scanline? Or is it a draw?


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 Post subject: Re: New SuperGrafx demo
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:46 pm 
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MottZilla wrote:

Oh, I was under the assumption that the PC-Engine could display close to the amount of sprites as the SNES. I guess I should have looked up the details. I knew the SNES was something like 32 sprites and 34 cells per scanline. I guess I was just expecting more of out the SuperGrafx since I thought close to SNES, doubled.

Actually that just got me thinking that I was thinking more about sprites per scanline rather than total sprites. Which wins out in total sprite pixels per scanline? Or is it a draw?


You must be thinking sprite pixel scanline limit; 272 sprite pixels or 34 8-pixel-wide cells or 32 sprites (total) for the SNES per scanline and 512 pixels or 32 16-pixel-wide cells or 32 sprites (total) per scanline for the SGX. Of course, on the PCE and SGX that's per *VDC scanline* and not NTSC scanline. You can setup the VDC to draw two or more scanlines per NTSC scanline, but you'll get a gap between them (the width of hblank since no pixels will be sent to the encoder except color #256; sprite transparency color). The PC-Engine is 256 pixels or 16 16-pixel-wide cells per scanline. Which ever comes first. It doesn't increase with the resolution change either, since the internal fetch/hold buffer isn't larger than that. Which is why most PCE games stick with the 5.37mhz dot clock over the 7.16mhz and 10.74mhz dot clock resolutions. So that's another advantage the SGX has over the PCE. The higher resolutions become more useful in relation to sprites and scanline limits.


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