BS Zelda no Densetsu Kodai no Sekiban (4 weeks)

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Kayumba
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:36 am

BS Zelda no Densetsu Kodai no Sekiban (4 weeks)

Post by Kayumba » Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:56 am

Hello everyone,

I don't know if somebody already tried to do PCB with "BS Zelda no Densetsu Kodai no Sekiban" with all 4 weeks on one PCB (Dai 1, Dai 2, Dai 3, Dai 4).
I'am confused between all versions :
Image

- I found some translated version here:
http://bszelda.zeldalegends.net/sekibanfiles.shtml
with 4.2Mo (32Mbit) for each week ! 4 week = 128Mbit !
I have one EXCEL file with list of all versions and I see that every week have only 1Mo (8Mbit).
So logically all 4 weeks can have 32Mbit of size (4X8Mbit) and can be used with 27C322 EPROM.

Impossible to use translated version with 27C322 EPROM cause need to have chip with 128Mbit size.
Here is my few questions:
- Is it exist 128Mbit EPROM ?
- What contain all REMIX versions with 8Mbit size ? Only one week or it's contain all 4 weeks inside?
On list I see some REMIX version with 512Kb of SRAM, so maybe it's so bug cause of 4 weeks ?

lidnariq
Posts: 10459
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Location: Seattle

Re: BS Zelda no Densetsu Kodai no Sekiban (4 weeks)

Post by lidnariq » Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:18 am

Kayumba wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:56 am
- Is it exist 128Mbit EPROM ?
No. The largest DIP PROM is the 27C322. Larger SMT 5V flash existed, but is very hard to get now. Modern flash is 3V and SMT only and will require voltage translation to not damage the SNES.

The other questions, I don't know.

Kayumba
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:36 am

Re: BS Zelda no Densetsu Kodai no Sekiban (4 weeks)

Post by Kayumba » Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:22 pm

lidnariq wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:18 am
Kayumba wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:56 am
- Is it exist 128Mbit EPROM ?
... to not damage the SNES.
You mean to not damage flash

lidnariq
Posts: 10459
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Location: Seattle

Re: BS Zelda no Densetsu Kodai no Sekiban (4 weeks)

Post by lidnariq » Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:45 pm

No, I mean both. Supply 3.3V flash with 3.3V and interface it to a higher voltage without translation, it'll damage both.

Supply a 3.3V flash with higher than its "Absolute Maximum Rating" and it'll damage the flash for a while ... then fail and possibly take the SNES with it.

If you're going to use 3V flash in a 5V system, always add translation.

Kayumba
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:36 am

Re: BS Zelda no Densetsu Kodai no Sekiban (4 weeks)

Post by Kayumba » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:11 am

lidnariq wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:45 pm
No, I mean both. Supply 3.3V flash with 3.3V and interface it to a higher voltage without translation, it'll damage both.

Supply a 3.3V flash with higher than its "Absolute Maximum Rating" and it'll damage the flash for a while ... then fail and possibly take the SNES with it.

If you're going to use 3V flash in a 5V system, always add translation.
« Translation » or Voltage regulator ?
is it the same?

I found one like XC6206
VIN : -0.3~+7.0
VOUT: 3.0V

https://www.torexsemi.com/file/xc6206/XC6206.pdf

Or this one is better AMS1117
• 5V to 3.3V Linear Regulator
http://www.advanced-monolithic.com/pdf/ds1117.pdf

If i'am not wrong , all that Chips like 29F016, 29F032 or 29F033 are supplied by 5v.
I found many on Ali.
I'am surprise that 29F033 cost very expensive !
What is the size of 29F033 ?

When you using all that kind of flash chip,
if you game size is less than flash chip, do you have to extend ROM file (to fill completely flash chip) ?

lidnariq
Posts: 10459
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Location: Seattle

Re: BS Zelda no Densetsu Kodai no Sekiban (4 weeks)

Post by lidnariq » Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:55 am

Kayumba wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:11 am
« Translation » or Voltage regulator ?
is it the same?
No, they are not the same.

A voltage regulator takes an input voltage, and emits a constant voltage for something else to use to function.

Translation takes a signal used by one digital convention, and converts it to another.

For example, the SNES "speaks" using the convention known as 5VCMOS. This means that a logic 1 is transmitted as 5V and a logic 0 is transmitted as 0V and it understands receiving voltages from 0-1.3V means 0 and from 3.7V-5V means 1. Those voltages is the middle aren't reliably understood.

In contrast, 3.3V flash uses 3VCMOS thresholds, which is similar but multiplies the above numbers by 66%.
e.g. https://www.jsykora.info/2014/05/logic-voltage-levels/

So here's the first problem: when 3.3V flash says 1, it only emits 3.3V. The SNES won't reliably understand that. People who have just put a 3V flash on a cart find that crashes happen. Rarely, but often enough to be frustrating.

And then there's the second problem: The 3.3V flash has so-called "overvoltage protection diodes" on it that protects it from static electricity. These diodes are not meant be used continuously. When the SNES (any part!) tries to say 1, it finds itself having to push more and more current into those diodes, which is bad for the SNES.

So some part that "translates" the voltages from one side to the other are necessary.

Available parts include the GTL2000 series voltage clamps, which prevent current from flowing when the voltage is too high, or more active parts like 74LVCC3245.

e.g. https://www.digikey.com/en/products/fil ... ifters/732
https://octopart.com/search?category_id=6296
If i'am not wrong , all that Chips like 29F016, 29F032 or 29F033 are supplied by 5v.
I found many on Ali.
I'am surprise that 29F033 cost very expensive !
What is the size of 29F033 ?
Everyone already wanted the 29F033, and bought them. The prices are a result of that demand. However, there is not enough demand to justify making new ones.

They're only 4MB (033 = 32megabit)
When you using all that kind of flash chip,
if you game size is less than flash chip, do you have to extend ROM file (to fill completely flash chip) ?
Most games don't seem to check. A few do.

Kayumba
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:36 am

Re: BS Zelda no Densetsu Kodai no Sekiban (4 weeks)

Post by Kayumba » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:55 pm

lidnariq wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:55 am
They're only 4MB (033 = 32megabit)
I am confused...
29F032
What here mean 32 ?
Same 32megabit ?!

lidnariq
Posts: 10459
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am
Location: Seattle

Re: BS Zelda no Densetsu Kodai no Sekiban (4 weeks)

Post by lidnariq » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:02 pm

Yes. Sometimes it means a different pinout.

soniccd123
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:01 pm

Re: BS Zelda no Densetsu Kodai no Sekiban (4 weeks)

Post by soniccd123 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:19 pm

For voltage translation, I use the 74LVC245 line and they work fine, they're very versatile and there is a lot of packages available for your needs. From my own uses, the plain 74LVC245 have a quite wide input voltage (can handle over-voltage until 5V) and output voltage defined by the VCC (between 1.2 and 3.3V).

Then there is the 74LVCxT245 in which x is the number of channels that the chip contains, for example 74LVC4T245 have 4 channels, the biggest is the one with 16 in the same chip I think. The 74LVCxT245 chips have the advantage that the output voltage can be independently defined to each port (each side of the chip), from 1.2 to 5V, this permits safe bidirectional level translation, which is why I use them in my Open Hardware Flashcart (the plain 74LVC245 outputs the VCC voltage in both ports).

They're quite cheap and available, they're widely used in the industry for a lot of applications, so are very easy to find.

Kayumba
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:36 am

Re: BS Zelda no Densetsu Kodai no Sekiban (4 weeks)

Post by Kayumba » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:57 am

soniccd123 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:19 pm
For voltage translation, I use the 74LVC245 line and they work fine, they're very versatile and there is a lot of packages available for your needs. From my own uses, the plain 74LVC245 have a quite wide input voltage (can handle over-voltage until 5V) and output voltage defined by the VCC (between 1.2 and 3.3V).

Then there is the 74LVCxT245 in which x is the number of channels that the chip contains, for example 74LVC4T245 have 4 channels, the biggest is the one with 16 in the same chip I think. The 74LVCxT245 chips have the advantage that the output voltage can be independently defined to each port (each side of the chip), from 1.2 to 5V, this permits safe bidirectional level translation, which is why I use them in my Open Hardware Flashcart (the plain 74LVC245 outputs the VCC voltage in both ports).

They're quite cheap and available, they're widely used in the industry for a lot of applications, so are very easy to find.
Thanks soniccd123,
God to know about 74LVC245.

You said you use 74LVC245 for your Open Hardware Flashcart,
but I didn't find it on your component list https://github.com/soniccd123/SNES-FeRAM-Cart
Last edited by Kayumba on Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

soniccd123
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:01 pm

Re: BS Zelda no Densetsu Kodai no Sekiban (4 weeks)

Post by soniccd123 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:22 am

Kayumba wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:57 am
Thanks soniccd123,
God to know about 74LVC245.

You sad you use 74LVC245 for your Open Hardware Flashcart,
but I didn't find it on your component list https://github.com/soniccd123/SNES-FeRAM-Cart
The one you linked is my SNES repro PCB, the Flashcart is this one: https://github.com/soniccd123/OpenDrive-Genesis

You will see that it uses 5x 74LVC8T245, but plain 74LVC245s can be used in the address lines (they're pin compatible if soldered in the correct position), the 8T variant is only strictly necessary in the data lines, as this bus needs correct bidirectional level-shifting

Kayumba
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:36 am

Re: BS Zelda no Densetsu Kodai no Sekiban (4 weeks)

Post by Kayumba » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:31 am

soniccd123 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:22 am
Kayumba wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:57 am
Thanks soniccd123,
God to know about 74LVC245.

You sad you use 74LVC245 for your Open Hardware Flashcart,
but I didn't find it on your component list https://github.com/soniccd123/SNES-FeRAM-Cart
The one you linked is my SNES repro PCB, the Flashcart is this one: https://github.com/soniccd123/OpenDrive-Genesis

You will see that it uses 5x 74LVC8T245, but plain 74LVC245s can be used in the address lines (they're pin compatible if soldered in the correct position), the 8T variant is only strictly necessary in the data lines, as this bus needs correct bidirectional level-shifting
Many questions comes to me,
I dont know if it's better to open new topic ...

- I found on Ali some few S29GL01G (with is 1Gbit = 128Mo !!!) and S29GL512S (with is 512Mbit = 64Mo) with more chose.
Pinout are the same for both.
- Between address pinout of EPROMs like 27C322 or 27C160 with 42 pins and those flash chips with 56 pins,
How to do correlation between ?
What I mean is:
if for EPROM 27C322, pin 1 (name A18) for LoROM are connected to A20 and for HiROM to A19, do I have to use the same pin names to do the same?
- 56 pins !!! With what to burn TSOP-56 ?
- TL866 programmer can burn TSOP-56 chip ? I didn't find any adapters :(
Found one adapter for ProMan programmer : https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/1005001389600358.html

OMG !
You said '5x 74LVC8T245'
I take a look on your PCB work. :shock:
If I understand right its works very simple, please correct me:
All data or signal lines with 5V that come out form SNES into 3v flash chip most pass through that chip 74LVC8T245 to be translated to 3v.
And so on, when 3V flash chip communicate with SNES have to pass through that kind of chip again just to be translated to 5v.
Thats why on your board you have 5x 74LVC8T245.
So if Flash chip have 56 pins and every pin communicate with SNES, I should have something about 10x 74LVC8T245 ?! :lol:
Is that right ?

- If i'am not right, do you have an example to how should be connected those S29GL512S or S29GL01G flash to 74LVC8T245, please ?

- instead to have on your board 5x 74LVC8T245, why to not use only one big chip ? (If it exist)
Like for example here, our Chinese friends use on BIG chip (cant see name of chip)
Image

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