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Help needed: Rockman 6-in-1 multicart hardware
http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=8426
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Author:  FARID [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:12 pm ]
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MottZilla wrote:
He dumped it with modified TapeDump programs I provided. Then I assembled the dumped data into an iNES ROM file.

The mapper chip/glop top is a MMC3 clone with multi-cart functions.


What hardware he used? Is your program free?

Last time I could dump my 7 in 1 glop top in this way :
How to Dump

But I killed it!

Author:  jpx72 [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:48 pm ]
Post subject: 

FARID wrote:
What hardware he used? Is your program free?

check:
http://nesdev.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=7978

Hardware - only NROM devcart to run the TapeDump software.


FARID wrote:
Here is 27Pin of 6264 :
?b1--> +5V
b2--> CE2

b1 and b2 are connected, how can this be different?
Image

FARID wrote:
Try to find out which pin is PRG A19 and CHR A19. It should be a line which is shared between PRG + CHR + MMC3.

How should I do that? I have no clue which one can be it. Maybe CHR A19 is the "?a" line that you identified as CE1. Because I think the PRG A19 is identified correctly.

Author:  FARID [ Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:00 am ]
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Quote:
b1 and b2 are connected, how can this be different?


This is one of those special lines! Now you know that you need to tie VCC (pin28) to CE2 (pin26).

Quote:
Maybe CHR A19 is the "?a" line that you identified as CE1


No I am sure ?a is CE1. Try to compare 6462 glop top with this :

Image

See? They really match each other!

But you are unlucky about MMC3 glop top, it doesn't match anything! So there is no way we can find out what the hell it is! It really has extra address lines and so called registers!

I don't know if it is really possible to control PRGA19 and CHRA19 (and maybe CHRA18?) with the help of some TTL chips.

Another issue is about size of PRG and CHR. They don't match your ROM size at all! I don't have any idea how this is possible on earth! Maybe those Chinese guys shared CHR between two Rockman version!

Author:  jpx72 [ Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:00 am ]
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Well thanks for your help, that's why I wanted to use the TTL logic in the first place. There are countless of pirate mapper globtops with different functions. And you cannot believe that all pirated MMC3 carts use that "AX5202P" you've found in one of them. There even may be more "components" under that glob.
I went on this road many times and never got positive results. But it's fun to play in paintbrush :D

FARID wrote:
Now you know that you need to tie VCC (pin28) to CE2 (pin26)

Yes, I'm aware of putting logic 1 on chip-enable, thanks. There's nothing special about it, it's active High.
But I don't think you should rely on original chip pinout, those chinese components covered with epoxy can have different pinouts, and the routes that are visible after exiting the glob can already be switched. AND you don't know if there are not any other "miracles" under the epoxy glob.

FARID wrote:
Another issue is about size of PRG and CHR. They don't match your ROM size at all! I don't have any idea how this is possible on earth! Maybe those Chinese guys shared CHR between two Rockman version!

Are you taking into account that the 27C160 is 16-bit? If it's used in 8-bit mode, I don't see any "impossibility" in that...

Author:  MottZilla [ Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:37 am ]
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The PRG-ROM is certainly 16 megabits (equal to a 27C160). And yes ofcourse it's used in 8bit mode. CHR-ROM is 4 megabits, the first 2 megabits are for Rockman 5. The next 1 megabit is Rockman 3. The next 1 megabit (but only the first 8 kilobytes really) is for the Menu Select graphics.

Like I said before, the gloptop that contains the MMC3 clone also contains other mapper functions for the multi-cart capability. This extra capability could be added onto a normal MMC3 with either a CPLD or enough 74 series chips probably. I've already outlined what capability and for what hardware purpose some of the multi cart function is about.

Most of the components are wired up just like a normal MMC3 game. But some extra logic controls things beyond the MMC3 like the higher PRG-ROM lines, CHR-ROM lines, and CHR chip control for CHR-RAM or CHR-ROM enable.

Author:  FARID [ Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:08 am ]
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@ jpx72
Please complete the diagram based on my suggestions and make it a one piece picture. Maybe some other one gets interested in it and wants to continue the work. Which software did you use to draw the lines? It is really a great job!

@ MottZilla
If PRG is a 27C160 then where is these pins :
/E
/G
/BYTE VPP
Q8~Q14
Q15A-1

Maybe it doesn't need Q pins which are output, but I don't believe it doesn't need /E, /G and /BYTE VPP then where are they?

If CHR is a 27C040 then it just needs A10~A18 to operate at 512KB but as you can see there is another pin which I guess it is A19, if it is not A19 then what is that pin?!

As you can see :
PRG is missing some pins so it is not 27C160 but 27C080
CHR has more pins than necessary so it is not 27C040 but 27C080

My 6-in-1 Rockman (Unl)[U][!].nes is :
Size : 2,621,516 bytes
MD5 : 7E4A01CC85CEBBD7181DA504DAAC6950
Length : 28004C

Somehow I feel that it is not in correct size :
256 + 128 + 120 + 8 + 256 + 256 + 512 + 512 + 256 + 128 + 8 + 120 = 2560 KB
2560 * 1024 = 2621440 + 16 (Header) = 2621456 bytes --> Length 280010

Where is my mistake?! :?:

Author:  jpx72 [ Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:27 am ]
Post subject: 

FARID wrote:
@ jpx72
My 6-in-1 Rockman (Unl)[u][!].nes is :
Size : 2,621,516 bytes
MD5 : 7E4A01CC85CEBBD7181DA504DAAC6950
Length : 28004C
Where is my mistake?! :?:


This rom is in UNIF format. You must cut out the UNIF header data, use ucon64 like this:
rename your rom to rockUNIF.nes and run in command line
ucon64.exe rockUNIF.nes rockINES.nes -ines
That will convert UNIF header to INES. After that:
ucon64.exe rockINES.nes --s
You'll get files:
rockINES.prg - 2048 kB
rockINES.chr - 512 kB
rockINES.prm - you can delete this one
And:
PRG=256+128+120+8+256+256+512+512=2048
CHR=256+128+8+120=512
- check my first post and read it throughout again.

BTW drawing software? WinXP's paintbrush :D

FARID wrote:
If PRG is a 27C160 then where is these pins :
/E
/G
/BYTE VPP
Q8~Q14
Q15A-1

/E = CE
/G = OE
/BYTE CPP= program supply
-read the "Operating modes" table in datasheet of 27C160, you'll see pins /E and /G in read mode must be LOW (V-IL) that means connected to ground (GND). /BYTE must he High (V-IH) that means +5V. So these lines are directly "cured" this way, so you don't see them coming out of the glob.

What the data lines concerns, you need to make 8 data lines out of 16. So you need to combine Q0+Q8, Q1+Q9 ...Q7+Q15 to get them. For that a pair of 7402 (NOR gate) can be used (or OR gate, but I don't know the number of IC with 4 ORs and 8 inputs).
Image
So there must be something else under that "PRG" glob to do that.

FARID wrote:
@ jpx72
Please complete the diagram based on my suggestions and make it a one piece picture.


UPLOADED new version, without your guesses (there have been mistakes, double A10 and A13, maybe more), just the comfirmed ones:
Image
It's better to view now, maybe you can review your pinout again.

Author:  FARID [ Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:53 am ]
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Here is my guess about the pinout

Most of them should correct. But this thing is really complex than I expect it!

MMC3 has some extra pins :
CHR A18 (CHR + MMC3)
CHR A19 (CHR + MMC3)
CHR /A13 (Connector + CHR + MMC3)

PRG A1 (Connector + PRG + MMC3)
PRG A4 (Connector + PRG + MMC3)
PRG A12 (Connector + PRG + MMC3)
PRG A19 (PRG + MMC3)
PRG OE (PRG + MMC3) (?)

I am not sure about PRG OE, because normally OE of PRG connects to GND. There are 2 GNDs at PRG, there is a chance that one of them is OE and then this pin of MMC3 can have another function.

After all now you know which pins are critical so you need some other TTL to use on these pins.

Author:  MottZilla [ Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:09 am ]
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FARID, the Rockman Pirate doesn't use a 27C160 EPROM, it has a 16 megabit size 8bit MaskROM for PRG-ROM. You could use a 27C160 EPROM if you were to build your own version of this cartridge, just set it to 8bit configuration.

The BYTE signal is related to 27C160's dual 8bit/16bit operation. The MaskROM won't have that. But it will have /CE and /OE signals. It will have D0 to D7 and all appropriate Address Lines and power and ground. Most of the upper address lines from PRG-ROM will go from one gloptop to the other. I think the top 4 lines, A20 to A17, shall all go to additional non-MMC3 logic. A16 to A0 should connect to MMC3 logic or Cartridge Connector normally.

Author:  jpx72 [ Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:31 pm ]
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I'm pretty sure 16megabit (2048kiloByte) size 8 bit-only ROM (PROM/EPROM/EEPROM/OTP EPROM) is not manufactured. Not saying those chinese guys cannot do one themselves.

Author:  MottZilla [ Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:59 am ]
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You do not understand. This is not a PROM, EPROM, or any other Programmable ROM. It's a MASK ROM. And yes 16 megabit 8bit Mask ROMs exist. Tons of them are in Super Nintendo Cartridges. And plenty are in Chinese Multi Cart Pirate games as well.

Author:  kyuusaku [ Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:31 am ]
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jpx72 wrote:
What the data lines concerns, you need to make 8 data lines out of 16. So you need to combine Q0+Q8, Q1+Q9 ...Q7+Q15 to get them. For that a pair of 7402 (NOR gate) can be used (or OR gate, but I don't know the number of IC with 4 ORs and 8 inputs).

If you closely examine the OR/NOR function you'll find that this doesn't make any sense. There is a very basic component for the function you're looking for (logically selecting between two inputs) called a multiplexer ("MUX").

Author:  jpx72 [ Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:09 am ]
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Yes, a multiplexer can be used too, maybe even better than adding those together with an OR (a+b). Thanks for the tip.

Author:  jpx72 [ Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:42 am ]
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Well let's forget about the 2048 8-bit ROM.
Anybody here knows how to adress
- lines A19 and A20 of the PRG
- line A18 of the CHR
to a "normal" MMC3 board like TKROM? Some diagram with 74xx chips or something similar?

Author:  l_oliveira [ Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:43 am ]
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I'm playing around with this ROM and the first one I tested (Rockman) has serious slow down issues while scrolling the screen ... (Is that related to the MMC3 IRQ timer ?)

It gave me a BAD first impression on these mapper conversions ...

P.S.: I was testing it on the real hardware: NTSC US NES + Nintendo TSROM board with CHRAM (make it wprk like TGROM) mod.

Anyone with the original pirate cart can confirm if Rockman 1 has slowdowns ? If that is not the case, it could be that the menu program explicitly disables the IRQ timer on the mapper chip.

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