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Gimmick! famicom reproduction cart with 5b audio
http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=9767
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Author:  Drakon [ Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gimmick! famicom reproduction cart with 5b audio

80sFREAK wrote:
Trolling? :lol: Noone need following you on different forums - you coming by yourself, bringing hot glue sculptures.

You come and complain about it on every forum. Why can't you post something more useful than just a complaint? If all you can do is complain about what I do, then why not post in areas that actually interest you? Or is your only interest bashing other peoples work?

Author:  MottZilla [ Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gimmick! famicom reproduction cart with 5b audio

Bananmos wrote:
I second that - Make repros, not war!


Make repros from new parts, not by destroying original game carts. ;)

Author:  3gengames [ Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gimmick! famicom reproduction cart with 5b audio

Drakon wrote:
80sFREAK wrote:
Trolling? :lol: Noone need following you on different forums - you coming by yourself, bringing hot glue sculptures.

You come and complain about it on every forum. Why can't you post something more useful than just a complaint? If all you can do is complain about what I do, then why not post in areas that actually interest you? Or is your only interest bashing other peoples work?


I've already posted what you should be using for this stuff. What interests me i nice, neat, well made products. Yours are not any of those, honestly. I'll agree with 80sFREAK, they look like hunks of glue.

Author:  rainwarrior [ Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gimmick! famicom reproduction cart with 5b audio

You made your point 20 posts ago. Nobody cared then, and nobody cares now, except maybe 80sFreak. Why don't you give it a rest.

Drakon has made something interesting here, and I'd like to read what other people have to say about it, and not just a billion posts about how one person doesn't like hot glue.

Author:  Drakon [ Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gimmick! famicom reproduction cart with 5b audio

MottZilla wrote:
Bananmos wrote:
I second that - Make repros, not war!


Make repros from new parts, not by destroying original game carts. ;)

I enjoy finding new uses for old stuff. I know it's an odd hobby.

Author:  tepples [ Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gimmick! famicom reproduction cart with 5b audio

MottZilla wrote:
Make repros from new parts, not by destroying original game carts. ;)

These ASICs are no longer manufactured. Are you talking about cloning an AY sound chip in a CPLD?

Author:  MottZilla [ Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Gimmick! famicom reproduction cart with 5b audio

Yes. Clone it. While hacking an old cartridge for an experiment isn't so bad, we've all seen what's happened with "repros" in recent years. There's nothing actually stopping anyone from cloning the old hardware if they really want to do so. It'd actually be better if he didn't post any exact instructions on doing this project since it would discourage people that would just want to profit by making hacked carts and save the "donor" games from being hacked up.

Author:  80sFREAK [ Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gimmick! famicom reproduction cart with 5b audio

tepples wrote:
MottZilla wrote:
Make repros from new parts, not by destroying original game carts. ;)

These ASICs are no longer manufactured. Are you talking about cloning an AY sound chip in a CPLD?

AY chips still avaliable.

Author:  Drakon [ Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gimmick! famicom reproduction cart with 5b audio

MottZilla wrote:
Yes. Clone it. While hacking an old cartridge for an experiment isn't so bad, we've all seen what's happened with "repros" in recent years. There's nothing actually stopping anyone from cloning the old hardware if they really want to do so. It'd actually be better if he didn't post any exact instructions on doing this project since it would discourage people that would just want to profit by making hacked carts and save the "donor" games from being hacked up.

A 100% accurate clone would be really cool. The whole reason why I did this is because the nes powerpak never recreates the audio of these carts exactly like the real thing. I don't mind discouraging people from doing this gremlins 2 is a pretty fun game and it's not like this is some easy 5 minute job. I've had people get mad at me in the past because I refused to post instructions on how to do certain mods since I don't want to see people frying expensive and hard to find hardware. I looked at the option of wiring up the AY chip I even bought a couple of those chips. The AY audio circuit is different I want to make something that sounds 100% like the original cart. Does anyone know if the AY audio output is different from the 5b chip based on how this audio circuit I found is wired?

Author:  rainwarrior [ Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gimmick! famicom reproduction cart with 5b audio

infiniteneslives tried both an AY and YM with his custom board: http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8808&start=75#p100622

Others have tried attaching them to a Return of the Joker cart. I think they were successful, either the AY or YM will make the right sounds. The harder thing to duplicate is the mixing.

I think the PowerPak does a decent job of emulating Gimmick's hardware. It doesn't have the envelope or noise of the 5B, but the game doesn't use those. Really I think it's not that hard to get 3 square waves replicated fairly well... I would guess it doesn't really handle the logarithmic volume curve fully, but the game itself generally keeps the squares in the quiet range of the chip anyway, so it's not much of a problem for Gimmick.

Author:  Drakon [ Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gimmick! famicom reproduction cart with 5b audio

The mixing is a big thing to me. I don't like buying the legit cart, plugging it in, and being able to hear the difference between the cart and my powerpak. That's why I started making these conversions. If we can get the AY / YM / powerpak to reproduce the audio 100% the same that would be awesome!

Author:  mikejmoffitt [ Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gimmick! famicom reproduction cart with 5b audio

If mixed properly the AY or YM chip (with the correct clock division, or lack thereof) should sound identical to the 5B, as I am fairly sure the 5B has the AY on-die.

Author:  tepples [ Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gimmick! famicom reproduction cart with 5b audio

I was under the impression that the mixing differed even between revisions of the authentic Famicom.

Author:  rainwarrior [ Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gimmick! famicom reproduction cart with 5b audio

Well, one of the things that's weird about Gimmick's mix is how loud it is. It's much louder than any other expansion cart I've tried. I guess this is due to the internal amplifier?

The APU mix and output level differs from Famicom to Famicom, but it has an average and an expected deviation like anything else. I don't think it has anything to do with revisions, mostly just different resistors that are still within the range of tolerance. Different Gimmick carts would have slightly different mixes as well, but there's still a sweet spot somewhere that we might call "correct". There's a huge difference between the range of tolerance between carts/Famicoms and the mix you'll get from the PowerPak w/audio mod, for instance. (Though as I said, I think the PowerPak is doing a fine job for Gimmick.)

The 5B is a YM2149F, not an AY. The difference is that YM envelopes can be twice the resolution, and it halves the incoming clock to accomplish this. However, this is not relevant to Gimmick, since it doesn't use the envelope.

Author:  l_oliveira [ Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Gimmick! famicom reproduction cart with 5b audio

I was looking at the Japanese schematic and apparently the sound is generated MONO at pin 27, mixed with the Famicom sound through a 10K resistor and then amplified by an OP AMP which is inside of the mapper chip at pins 2 and 3 ... Fun stuff, no ?

Edit: AY has louder outputs, which allows for wiring the chip straight to the Famicom feedback without an amp chip.
Edit2: Wiki has that fixed already. Outdated me.

Now to fit an YM2149 on it and properly amp the audio !

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