"[t]he NES 2.0 file represents the function of everything inside the Game Pak shell. Things like controllers and overscan go in the manual." This rule is already violated by the "TV system" field. This means that either the user has to configure input devices himself, or an emulator needs to use a hash table to automatically select them to make a game playable as opposed to merely run it in attract mode. The first solution is not user-friendly, the second option neither emulator- nor ROM-hack-friendly.
Edit: Updated proposal here.
Cartridges do contain a part related to the region where they're supposed to be used, though: the lockout chip. I'm not saying this invalidates your argument, but it might be relevant somehow.NewRisingSun wrote:Status quo:
"[t]he NES 2.0 file represents the function of everything inside the Game Pak shell. Things like controllers and overscan go in the manual." This rule is already violated by the "TV system" field.
I'm not sure I would consider side A & B as separate devices. I'm not completely certain, but it's likely that some games use both, depending on the situation (e.g games that are made up of several different mini games)NewRisingSun wrote:0A Power Pad Side A in NES Player 2 Port
0B Power Pad Side B in NES Player 2 Port
0C Family Trainer Side A in Famicom Expansion Port
0D Family Trainer Side B in Famicom Expansion Port
Which zzo38's proposal calls "DoubleFisted". But where does that leave Smash TV, which supports normal (A: shoot forward, B: shoot in last A direction) for 1 or 2 players, DoubleFisted for 1 player, or DoubleFisted through Four Score/Satellite for two players?NewRisingSun wrote:1A Crazy Climber Control Method
Likewise two Zappers for "ZapPing" in Zap Ruder or two Super NES Mouse controllers for Thwaite. This makes the first Action 53 doubly guilty.NewRisingSun wrote:Two Zappers for Chiller: impractical on PCs.
Likewise Miracle Piano: used only on one NES game.NewRisingSun wrote:Doremikko Keyboard: used only on one FDS game.
Lockout is the same on Famicom and PAL famiclones, despite some 60-pin games requiring PAL famiclones because the non-reentrant NMI handler expects to consume more than 262 scanlines.
Side A vs. B is like normal vs. DoubleFisted.
I have tested all of them, and unless I missed one, the only ROM image that requires both is the Power Pad Test cartridge. Of course, somebody could make a homebrew multicart consisting of all the Power Pad/Family Trainer games, but I have not seen one. Emulating both Sides as one device, as stock Nintendulator and Mesen do, seems awkward to me, as it requires additional user configuration effort that this proposal is supposed to remove.Sour wrote:I'm not completely certain, but it's likely that some games use both, depending on the situation (e.g games that are made up of several different mini games)
Note 1 applies: If a game supports several selectable options, denote the simplest one that will allow one to play the game. Same for Chiller.tepples wrote:But where does that leave Smash TV, which supports normal (A: shoot forward, B: shoot in last A direction) for 1 or 2 players, DoubleFisted for 1 player, or DoubleFisted through Four Score/Satellite for two players?
The emphasis is on the "FDS" part. Because FDS games have no NES 2.0 header, devices limited to them are inapplicable to a NES 2.0 header proposal. Miracle Piano does use NES headers and therefore is applicable to a NES 2.0 header proposal.tepples wrote:Likewise Miracle Piano: used only on one NES game.
Is that specifically "joystick via $4017 and vs zapper via $4016" ?NewRisingSun wrote:07 Vs. System Zapper
Those are both only the player 1 port? Huh.0E Arkanoid Paddle in NES Player 1 Port
17 Miracle Piano Keyboard in NES Player 1 Port
Is there any interest in marking the two Vaus situation for Arkanoid 2? It's only used by the vs. mode.
Since the Vaus is usually emulated using a mouse, and since few PCs have two mice, the situation is similar to Chiller and so my answer would be "no". Arkanoid II also supports the Famicom Data Recorder for saving editor data, and is to my knowledge the only tape-saving game that also supports expansion port controllers.lidnariq wrote:Is there any interest in marking the two Vaus situation for Arkanoid 2? It's only used by the vs. mode.
Good enough for me.NewRisingSun wrote:I have tested all of them, and unless I missed one, the only ROM image that requires both is the Power Pad Test cartridge.
And about the 2x zapper situation, while it's unusual on a single PC, this configuration works via netplay on Mesen, and is needed to play Chiller (over netplay) with 2 "zappers". So the option would be useful in that sense, but not really a big deal either way.
For good and ill, more computers have multitouch touchscreens now, and two Vaus on one touchscreen seems perfectly tenable.... but it's also just a bonus mode that doesn't affect one's ability to play the primary game. On the other hand, I think you've indirectly pointed out that maybe there's an argument for a "Vaus and Data Recorder" entry.
(I agree that two Zappers on one touchscreen poses all sorts of problems, but then Sour's argument remains)
Again, an emulator would be free to support these configurations, just not as an auto-selected configuration when the ROM is loaded. That being said, of course one could add an entry for "one/two zappers", so that if an emulator detects two mice, or netplay with one mouse on each end, it can mount both emulated zappers, otherwise just one.lidnariq wrote:therefore let's not handle the games that have multiple analog input devices".
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23 Hori Track 24 1P Controller and one Zapper, or two Zappers (Chiller)
I don't think the Vaus controller and Data Recorder can coexist, so they would have to be manually or automatically (un-)plugged. A more involved proposal extension would be to add special entries for such cases:lidnariq wrote:I think you've indirectly pointed out that maybe there's an argument for a "Vaus and Data Recorder" entry.
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80 Famicom Data Recorder and ASCII Turbo File (Castle Excellent) 81 Famicom Data Recorder or 2xArkanoid Controller (Arkanoid II) 82 Zapper and Hiro Track (Operation Wolf) 83 Famicom Four Players Adapter with Standard Controllers and Hiro Trackballs (U.S. Championship V'Ball)
I would say so, because the microphone is connected to the cartridge, not the NES 1P/2P/Famicom expansion port.B00daW wrote:Regarding the two Korean microphone games, are we assuming that the mappers should take care of the microphone support on load
Remember that the built-in hardwired controllers are really short, and developers did what they could to support external controllers.
Games developed by US or European companies often did not support using Famicom Player 3 or Player 4's controllers.
So I think there should be another entry: Two NES/Famicom controllers, but also using Famicom Four-Player adapter as an alternative for the main controllers. This is about documenting the games, and that's what the games do. It will probably end up being the most frequent joypad option. You'll be surprised just how many games support using Player 3's controller.