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 Post subject: Re: NesDev compo 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 3:40 pm 
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Old habits die hard :(


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 Post subject: Re: NesDev compo 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 3:45 pm 
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Guilty wrote:
I have grandiose plans for scrolling and a status bar that I'm pretty sure will only work with single-screen switchable mirroring if I understand how that works.

Using 1-screen mirroring is indeed the easiest way, but it comes with horizontal attribute glitches (which you may hide with sprites if you find necessary).

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IIRC, one of the only other ways to do unlimited 4 way scrolling with a status bar is to pull a Crystalis and do horizontal mirroring, but that doesn't fix the horizontal artifacts.

There are other ways. The Crystalis technique also works with vertical mirroring, but you need to blank a few scanlines to hide the scroll seam.

Another solution is seen in The Jungle Book: Instead of skipping the status bar like Crystalis does, it redraws the status bar at a new position when necessary. If you don't have mapper IRQs, this is easier to implement.


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 Post subject: Re: NesDev compo 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 3:53 pm 
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NESHomebrew wrote:
Old habits die hard :(

Was this just a terminology error? I can be bad with that too and I wouldn't fault somebody for a mistake.

Did you just mean essentially discreet 64KB Action 53 compatible mapper when you said NROM?

In the beginning I went from this, from the 2014 rules:
Quote:
Mapper 28 compatible entry up to 64KB with NO PRG-RAM


I thought I understood the categories at first then more people kept saying NROM and things got blurry. By that point I'm already pretty far into my entry.


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 Post subject: Re: NesDev compo 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:00 pm 
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darryl.revok wrote:
Guilty wrote:
NESHomebrew tepples wrote:
The Action 53 mapper supports AOROM, but AOROM entries go in "anything goes" due to their size.

...Only if it exceeds 64KB, right?

The confusion here is that with AxROM and other board types, the second character usually refers to different sizes and configurations. "AOROM" implies a 128KB or 256KB PRG ROM, which is out.

Mapper 7 itself is perfectly fine.


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 Post subject: Re: NesDev compo 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:06 pm 
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darryl.revok wrote:
NESHomebrew wrote:
Old habits die hard :(

Was this just a terminology error? I can be bad with that too and I wouldn't fault somebody for a mistake.

Did you just mean essentially discreet 64KB Action 53 compatible mapper when you said NROM?

In the beginning I went from this, from the 2014 rules:
Quote:
Mapper 28 compatible entry up to 64KB with NO PRG-RAM


I thought I understood the categories at first then more people kept saying NROM and things got blurry. By that point I'm already pretty far into my entry.


In 2011 it was called the NROM category, since that is exactly what it was. This was before Mapper 28 existed. I did not design the hardware, or the menu software and haven't spent a significant amount of time analyzing either so I can't say exactly what is or isn't compatible. I will say, that category 1 is exactly as it shows for the 2014 rules. I think the reason Tepples said AOROM would be part of the "anything goes" category is because AOROM boards support 128/256 and only 64KB is compatible


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 Post subject: Re: NesDev compo 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:44 pm 
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NESHomebrew wrote:
I think the reason Tepples said AOROM would be part of the "anything goes" category is because AOROM boards support 128/256 and only 64KB is compatible


Hey, speaking of which...

tepples wrote:
A category with a mandatory "theme", such as a harsh size limit or playing as a bee, would probably not be popular enough to draw entries. Stick with a 64K discrete category (N/CN/UN/AN/BNROM) and anything goes, but possibly add bonus points for meeting an optional theme.


ANROM on the wiki is listed for 128KB PRG. Doesn't that exclude it from a 64K discrete category, and AN1ROM would be more correct? Or is the 128KB PRG listing just a maximum, not a mandatory amount? Still not very familiar with the pcb differences.

Anyways, I'm hearing that mapper 7 is fine provided the rom is 64K or lower excluding header.


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 Post subject: Re: NesDev compo 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 5:14 pm 
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Guilty wrote:
Or is the 128KB PRG listing just a maximum, not a mandatory amount?

I believe these values are the largest ROMs the boards were designed to support. An UOROM board, for example, will run any UNROM game just fine.

Quote:
Anyways, I'm hearing that mapper 7 is fine provided the rom is 64K or lower excluding header.

That's my understanding.


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 Post subject: Re: NesDev compo 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 5:29 pm 
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darryl.revok wrote:
I fail to see how the results you get with single-screen will be better than the results you'll get with horizontal mirroring.

Not necessarily better, just easier because you don't have to move the status bar back and forth.

Quote:
Crystalis has a pretty neat approach of forcing scroll to a boundary where attributes can be corrected.

But can it be done efficiently without IRQs?* The DPCM Split technique might work (cf. Time Lord and Fire Hawk), but I'm not sure everyone here is brave enough to try it with a variable split point, and some of us want to leave that channel free for the music engine's use.

As far as I can tell, the Crystalis technique is a workaround for lack of single-screen mirroring on TKROM (MMC3, #4) as opposed to SKROM (MMC3, #1), TKSROM (MMC3, A10=CHR A17, #118), a hypothetical JKROM that would have been a battery-backed version of JSROM/NES-BTR (FME-7, #69), and a hypothetical version of AOROM (#7) with the battery circuit from Family BASIC.

Quote:
Or is a 64KB discreet UNROM legal but a 64KB discreet AOROM isn't?

Functionally there is no difference between ANROM and AOROM for ROMs 128K or smaller. AOROM just uses special PRG ROMs with a +CE input instead of an extra 74HC02 for bus conflict avoidance and routes Q2 to PRG ROM A17 for 256K support.

To put it even more clearly: Mappers 2, 180, 34, and 7 with 64 KiB PRG ROM are allowed.


* Spinning for the majority of draw time != efficiently.


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 Post subject: Re: NesDev compo 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 6:51 pm 
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The rules seem to be getting pretty close to solidified. Is there going to be an official statement of the rules at some point?

This thread seems to be called "NesDev compo 2016" but it seems more like "NesDev compo planning 2016" to me. I would imagine the official rules should go in a sticky topic with this thread's current name? Is there a hosting website? (NesDev? NintendoAge? INL? tepples?)


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 Post subject: Re: NesDev compo 2016
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:06 pm 
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Rename complete.

As I understand it, this compo will be hosted on the same subdomain where the 2011 and 2014 compos were hosted. The final rules will be posted there, probably by NESHomebrew, and once I'm made aware of them, I'll make a new topic with a copy of the official announcement and rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Planning
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:09 pm 
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Why are there suddenly empty subforums for 2011 and 2014?

Do you like to waste the time of people who are tempted to click on them? O_o

Edit: oh, I see what you're doing. (It's hella confusing, as always, but I was opposed to extra sub-forums from the get go. :P Carry on, I guess...)


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 Post subject: Re: Planning
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 8:03 pm 
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Quote:
seems more like "NesDev compo planning 2016" to me


Seems like a long confused discussion about mappers to me =)

_________________
nesdoug.com -- blog/tutorial on programming for the NES


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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 6:57 am 
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darryl.revok wrote:
NESHomebrew wrote:
I thought that it had been pretty clear that the categories would be pretty much identical to the 2014 rules.


Here are a few sources of the confusion as to why people would believe that NROM specifically is the only mapper that's allowed for the main category:

Sigh... I give up.

No, that was quite helpful, that was what I was trying to get at.


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 Post subject: Re: Planning
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 12:15 pm 
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Judging. This is something that needs to be looked at before we announce the official rules. I have posted below the 2014/2011 and Ludum Dare judging criteria. Honestly I'm leaning more towards a Ludum Dare format where each category is judged out of 5 stars, and if for some reason a category does not fit an entry, then it can be N/A and won't be counted towards the full marks for the entry. I figure this is a good way to even the playing field if someone submits something like a test rom. As for categories, this is something I would like some input on.

2014
Gameplay and Control
Originality
Art and Style
Replay Value
Sound and Music
Polish/Completeness

2011
Graphics
Gameplay
Originality
Replay Value
Completeness
Sound/Music

Ludum Dare (old) - Rated 5 stars each or N/A

Innovation – The unexpected. Things in a unique combination, or something so different it’s notable.
Fun – How much you enjoyed playing a game. Did you look up at the clock, and found it was 5 hours later?
Theme – How well an entry suits the theme. Do they perhaps do something creative or unexpected with the theme?
Graphics – How good the game looks, or how effective the visual style is. Nice artwork, excellent generated or geometric graphics, charming programmer art, etc.
Audio – How good the game sounds, or how effective the sound design is. A catchy soundtrack, suitable sound effects given the look, voice overs, etc.
Humor – How amusing a game is. Humorous dialog, funny sounds, or is it so bad it’s good?
Mood – Storytelling, emotion, and the vibe you get while playing.
Overall – Your overall opinion of the game, in every aspect important to you.
Community – Journals, photos, timelapse video. Everything you do above and beyond just making the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Planning
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 2:33 pm 
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I feel that there should be some kind of category denoting how remarkable something's code is. Something that would net a 5/5 for CatQuest's AI/room compression, or a 5/5 for Battletoad's insane vblank handling (large amount of ppu updates, tons of tricky raster timing).

As a newbie I really love to see the crazy tricks people come up with to fit more data/prettier graphics into smaller chips, and I want to see people commended for that in some way. But, as a newbie I'm easily amazed, so not sure if the examples I used are good ones.


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