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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:48 pm 
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lidnariq wrote:
FrankenGraphics wrote:
Well, why hold on to assumptions when it only takes 3 seconds to realize that new star evil isn't here to redeem old star evil.
And therefore why is it called a "remake of Star Evil" ?

There's not much of a semantic link between a remake and the ambition to redeem or improve on the original, even if that may be the ambition sometimes. If anything, it just means "make new", "redo" or perhaps "make different".

Is blaster master overdrive for wii any less of a remake just because it failed to surpass blaster masterin general quality? (Also, this comparison in quality is an assessment we as audience, consumers, players make).

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:05 pm 
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toggle switch wrote:
what about 'remake' implies 'make better' to you? those two things are in fact opposing goals.
Please reread the rest of my reply. All of the extra words were also there for a reason:
lidnariq wrote:
Care to reevaluate the context in which this was submitted? This isn't a random thing [...] but is rather something being placed in a multicart of games submitted by a bunch of people who put a lot of work into making things that look good and play well.


FrankenGraphics wrote:
There's no link between a remake and the ambition to redeem or improve on the original. If anything, it just means "make new", "redo" or perhaps "make different".
Ah, finally, we're arguing about definitions. I guess we're done, then.

Remake, to me, implies that something more than a memetic shout-out to the original, which seems to me to be the extent to which this is related. This is comparable to remaking Secret of Monkey Island but not having it be an adventure game, had Guybrush Threepwood show up to make a brief aside in the first minutes of the game, a snide comment from him 3/4 through the game, and no other relation to the original game.

This game has more in common with pubby's previous game Ralph than with A52's StarEvil.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:11 pm 
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Quote:
Please reread the rest of my reply. All of the extra words were also there for a reason:


nah, not really. just fluff and assumptions that have no place in reality. this is a homebrew cart. the fact that you may assume the quality is better than things you would find elsewhere means literally nothing to me, other than you make assumptions when maybe you shouldn't.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:26 pm 
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toggle switch wrote:
nah, not really. just fluff and assumptions that have no place in reality. this is a homebrew cart. the fact that you may assume the quality is better than things you would find elsewhere means literally nothing to me, other than you make assumptions when maybe you shouldn't.
When this is entirely an argument about expectations, assumptions are exactly what's germane, and your attempts to brush them off don't pass muster.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:30 pm 
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the argument is about whether or not pubby's game is acceptable as is for the cart.

your attempt to bring in your own personal assumptions, which i do not share is the thing that does not pass muster.

for example, your assumption that a 'remake' will necessarily improve upon the original, is substantially more fatuous than anything else i've read here.

and your assumption that someone would take the time to make a GOOD space shooter and then saddle it with the name of a famously bad game is equally ridiculous.


Last edited by toggle switch on Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:47 pm 
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Quote:
Ah, finally, we're arguing about definitions. I guess we're done, then.

Since you stressed the significance of it being called a remake, i think it begs the question.

Quote:
Remake, to me, implies that something more than a memetic shout-out to the original, which seems to me to be the extent to which this is related. This is comparable to remaking Secret of Monkey Island but not having it be an adventure game, had Guybrush Threepwood show up to make a brief aside in the first minutes of the game, a snide comment from him 3/4 through the game, and no other relation to the original game.


I can see your point. [For anything to be generally percieved a remake], I do think there should be a substantial similarity, if not in body, then at least in theme or spirit. At the same time, the comparison seems unfair. Monkey island is a grand adventure that will keep you invested for hours and a simple cameo would pale in comparison. Starevil will likely have have you throw the controller on the side of the sofa before the first level is even done. There's nothing of significant value in it; it's all noisy mush in absence of active design. The other two levels don't offer anything different. Game breaks at 4th. Takes you a couple of minutes to get there. The most significant feature is the cheap trick in the beginning. New star evil captures that moment. The rest of the game captures the noisy mush in a symbolic parallelism. I dare say new star evil manages to capture what starevil is about (at least on a spiritual level) if not in full then at least by half.

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When this is entirely an argument about expectations

This is the core of the disagreement. I think it's clear that not everyone would subscribe to this framing of the subject. There's plenty of other frames in here, too.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:42 pm 
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FrankenGraphics wrote:
Quote:
Ah, finally, we're arguing about definitions. I guess we're done, then.
Since you stressed the significance of it being called a remake, i think it begs the question.
As much as it seems to have gotten lost in all the other noise, this is the entirety of my bone of contention.

toggle switch wrote:
and your assumption that someone would take the time to make a GOOD space shooter and then saddle it with the name of a famously bad game is equally ridiculous.
Now that is a good argument.

The rest of your argument, unfortunately, seems to be framed in terms of relative merits of different people's opinions.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:54 pm 
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i think that's about as close to agreement as we're going to get so let's just leave it.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:14 pm 
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toggle switch wrote:
and your assumption that someone would take the time to make a GOOD space shooter and then saddle it with the name of a famously bad game is equally ridiculous.

A previous volume contained STREEMERZ: Super Strength Emergency Squad Zeta, a somewhat more faithful reimagining of the concept of "Streemerz" from Action 52.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:35 pm 
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lidnariq wrote:
M_Tee wrote:
Star Evil is the exact opposite of bait and switch. It makes the player expect something of a very low quality, but delivers something unique and interesting. To most people, there is nothing desirable about generic-looking remake of already generic space shooter from a notoriously low-quality multicart. I'm honestly bewildered by the fact that the basis of your argument seems to be "people will be disappointed the game isn't actually a crappy space shooter."
Your argument seems to boil down to "why would you assume that a remake of a terrible thing be better done than the original thing?" which ... surely it's obvious why that's fatuous?

I'm sorry, but I actually don't understand what you think my argument is. If you'd like to explain further, I'd gladly clarify.
tepples wrote:
Am I still out of line?

Considering the title of this thread seems to be intentionally disrespectful of a contributor's entry, then yes.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:52 pm 
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Do I need to leave NESdev.com? If not, what steps ought I to take to bring my behavior back in line?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:12 pm 
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Man, I hate that the subject field is required! How can we fix that? :mrgreen:

tepples wrote:
Do I need to leave NESdev.com? If not, what steps ought I to take to bring my behavior back in line?

Come on man, not this drama again. Everyone makes poor decisions occasionally, everyone can be a dick sometimes, the important thing is to not do it intentionally and consistently enough that you're bothering people all the time.

I say this in the most generic way possible, because I honestly haven't been following this thread for the past few pages, so I don't know how far the drama went for something that really isn't supposed to be such a big deal.

If we're still discussing wether a deceptive game description is allowed in the compo cartridge, my vote is to let the author of the game do whatever he wants. If he feels that this is important to get players in the right mood to make the most out of the game, then that's just part of the experience of playing that game. A compilation cartridge is hardly an encyclopedia that has a strict commitment with the truth, and not everyone is required to like all of the games. If a player is sensitive enough to feel betrayed by an NES game then HE/SHE needs to work on that, because any normal person would simply avoid the game in the future.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:20 pm 
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I still feel bad for this. What do I still need to do?

1. What changes still need to be made?
Attachment:
a53vol4-2.png
a53vol4-2.png [ 1.34 KiB | Viewed 1882 times ]

2. What title should I have used instead for this topic?

3. How can I recognize situations like this in the future where I will have done wrong?

4. What should I do differently in each such situation?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:44 pm 
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M_Tee wrote:
I'm sorry, but I actually don't understand what you think my argument is. If you'd like to explain further, I'd gladly clarify.
Ok, I'll break this into smaller bits:

M_Tee wrote:
Star Evil is the exact opposite of bait and switch. It makes the player expect something of a very low quality, but delivers something unique and interesting.
No?

I did not expect something of very low quality (Why would I? It was submitted to the compo), hence the way too many electrons spilt over my arguing the definition of "remake".

Separately, in my experience, the result is not unique, and in its entirety it has two events that count as "interesting" to me, of which one counts to me as subtly abusive.

You're entitled to your opinion, and so is everyone else, and evidently there are enough outspoken people here who disagree with me. None-the-less other people enjoying it doesn't mean I don't feel misled by describing it as a remake.

Call it an "homage", "inspired by", remove the descriptive text altogether, whatever. The thing that upsets me is that in my opinion, the menu should appear to be a neutral arbiter, and because to me "remake" implies things that this isn't, and that in turn negatively affects the appearance of neutrality of the menu.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:00 pm 
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tepples,

i don't think you need to feel bad.

for me, i liked this game a lot. i wouldn't want to ruin the experience that i had for anybody else. clearly, i'm willing to argue my point to the bitter end!

in the future, if you have a problem with a submission, it may avoid drama if you contact the submitter privately. you guys probably woulda worked something out, and nobody else would have known the difference.

we're all here to make cool things and have fun. i never would have made project blue without your help, even though we've never even interacted, really. your posts here are invaluable.

no need for acrimony over a minor pedantic issue.


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