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2018, what's up?
http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=17378
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Author:  FrankenGraphics [ Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2018, what's up?

Maybe that'd depend on what counts as a remix. Changing the tilesets and music? Tweaking the physics? I guess they do. Then, should a remix compete with new games for the same ranking and prizes? Maybe. But it'll be a tough one to judge.

Author:  tepples [ Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2018, what's up?

I thought up the remix compo mostly because I want the 53 games included in the final compilation to be the best they can be. If you think you can improve someone else's entry, don't hesitate to ask.

Author:  NESHomebrew [ Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2018, what's up?

I'm not seeing a ton of support for a sidecompo. I agree that everything should be polished as much as possible for the final release, but at the same time some people might be hesitant or offended if they are really proud of their entry, but someone makes it better. Does that mean that their original version doesn't make it on the final cartridge?

If we want to make it an optional theme, that could work. Or if someone has an idea how a side-compo would be structured (prizes, carts, etc) please post here.

Author:  tepples [ Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2018, what's up?

NESHomebrew wrote:
some people might be hesitant or offended if they are really proud of their entry, but someone makes it better.

That's why I recommended asking first, or remixing games released as free software (such as my own entries so far).

NESHomebrew wrote:
Does that mean that their original version doesn't make it on the final cartridge?

Ultimately, yes, it'd replace if better. Two Russian Roulettes enter, one Russian Roulette leaves. Two 2048s enter, one 2048 leaves.

NESHomebrew wrote:
Or if someone has an idea how a side-compo would be structured (prizes, carts, etc) please post here.

Let me summarize the rules of Famicompo Pico, an NES/Famicom music competition held once a year or so:

  • Four categories: Original NSF plus expansions, cover NSF plus expansions, original all gear, and cover all gear. NSF is limited to 1 MiB as per NSF spec, but entrants are warned that voters who listen on PowerPak won't be able to listen to entries larger than 248 KiB. No more than 5 tracks.
  • Each category has its own voting.
  • Two months from announcement to submission deadline; one more month for voting.
  • Entrants are expected to keep authorship confidential until voting is complete, in order to prevent voting based on name recognition. This means no self-promotion and no soliciting pre-submission critique from the public.
  • A cartridge is made of the top-rated entries among those that the project is allowed to distribute, so long as they don't use Famicom expansion audio or more than 64 KiB of data. Almost all of these come from the original category, but I was told a well-received cover of pre-1923 classical music would be considered for inclusion.

We might draw an analogy between Famicompo's cover category and this one-shot remix category. We have the same 64 KiB limit, but not the confidentiality.

One thing we might grade on is user-visible improvement, obviously. Another is value for space, as I worry about whether we'll be able to fit everything into a 16 Mbit cart (like Action 52 and the FFVII demake). An entry that allows multiple games that were formerly separate to share a PRG bank, such as by sharing the audio driver or text font or basic PPU interface code or whatever, might score points in value for space.

Author:  Punch [ Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2018, what's up?

I was trying to work with a PC Engine port of my game (and subsequent remix to both platforms) but I got pretty discouraged at the end, not to mention I have very little time to work on anything right now. If someone wants to "remix" my game I'd be honored, but frankly I don't think it's interesting enough of a game for it to happen.

Author:  M_Tee [ Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2018, what's up?

Pointed out again in the Assembly Line podcast that multiplayer-only games pulled in the tail end of the rankings last year.
I feel it's inevitable considering the judging system, but is there anything that can be done to further encourage multiplayer entries?
Perhaps a Best Multiplayer award and prize?

Author:  FrankenGraphics [ Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2018, what's up?

I agree. Multiplayer games are lots of fun when you bring someone over, but they get low scores categorically. It's kind of hard to require all peer reviewers to play them with a friend, so a differently defined prize for multiplayer entries or even a category of its own could perhaps be beneficial.

Multiplayer being defined as:
-2 or more players cooperate, compete and/or duel

not as:
-2 or more players take turns playing a single player campaign without any meaningful ingame interaction.

Author:  gauauu [ Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2018, what's up?

M_Tee wrote:
Perhaps a Best Multiplayer award and prize?


This is my suggestion as well. I love multiplayer games, so I think it'd be great if we had a better incentive for people to make/submit them.


Quote:
One thing we might grade on is user-visible improvement, obviously. Another is value for space, as I worry about whether we'll be able to fit everything into a 16 Mbit cart (like Action 52 and the FFVII demake). An entry that allows multiple games that were formerly separate to share a PRG bank, such as by sharing the audio driver or text font or basic PPU interface code or whatever, might score points in value for space.


I think part of the issue is that most of us submitting entries are more interested in coming up with new ideas and submitting them for the competition, then we are in the long-term goal of 53 great games on a cart. I mean, that's a neat idea, but it's not why I enter the competition, and so it's not going to carry much weight in terms of motivating my submissions.

Author:  dougeff [ Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2018, what's up?

I propose 3 categories.

1.new game or remix of previous game

2.multiplayer game (separate prize)

3.non games (no prize)

Author:  M_Tee [ Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2018, what's up?

I think having a separate multiplayer category would: reduce motivation to include a multiplayer mode into a main game (such as in f-ff), potentially lead to too few games per category, and remove the off chance that a multiplayer game could pull a prize in the main category.

Perhaps it would be better to simply have an additional question on the judging questionnaire, such as "Rate Multiplayer Experience: 1~5, NA"

The scores from the multiplayer experience would not add into the 50 point total for the overall score, but would instead be used for a separate ranking to establish, say, a 1st through 3rd place for "Best Multiplayer Experience."

This way, something like f-ff (which has both established single and multi-player) would potentially be eligible for both prizes.

Author:  gauauu [ Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2018, what's up?

M_Tee wrote:
Perhaps it would be better to simply have an additional question on the judging questionnaire, such as "Rate Multiplayer Experience: 1~5, NA"


That's not a bad idea. I'm vaguely considering submitting a game with 2 player co-op mode, and your suggestion would make a lot of sense for that sort of thing.

Author:  dougeff [ Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2018, what's up?

Quote:
would potentially be eligible for both prizes.


I don't think 1 game should be able to win 2 monetary prizes.

Author:  FrankenGraphics [ Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2018, what's up?

I agree with both. M-tee's suggestion is great, but it can be seen as unfair that multiplayer games can potentially win a higher summed prize than other games; however somewhat unlikely based on the history so far.

My suggestion would be that in the case an entry was ranked high enough to score both a normal prize and the "best multiplayer prize", the lesser prize of the the two would be passed on down that rank to the next highest entry. The entrant wins simply wins the prize representing the most significant achievement of the two, while being awarded the fame.

The difference between entries being multiplayer oriented or having a multiplayer component, and games that don't, would what prizes you might be able to win; but not how much the prize would be.

I hope this will incentivize people to keep making multiplayer games despite their categorically low ranking in the normal competition, and maybe even inspire to dare elaborate more on the player to player interaction element.

Author:  M_Tee [ Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2018, what's up?

I haven't thiught of it deeply, but I kind of like the possibility of winning a bonus for multiplayer along with a normal award because it would encourage a rosk vs reward decision making process: Do I use a precious portion of my 64k to include a multiplayer mode or more single player content? Do I use a portion of my coding time to implement, test, and balance multiplayer or polish what I have?

EDIT:
...although with Frankengraphics' suggestion, that temptation would still be there, so no harm in going that way.

Author:  M_Tee [ Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2018, what's up?

Actually, rereading FG's comment, I think it would be best to go that way. If I understand correctly, a single entry/entrant could win both prizes, but the lower of the two monetary rewards would just be passed down the line?

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