Anyone has a real NTSC Incredible Crash Test Dummies cart?

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FrankWDoom
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Re: Anyone has a real NTSC Incredible Crash Test Dummies car

Post by FrankWDoom » Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:42 am

i have a mmc3c socketed cart for testing. the text on the opening screens is jumpy. here's a test run:

https://twitter.com/FrankWDoom/status/1 ... 9824610309

(sorry, don't know a better way to post a video here)

recorded on a crt on an original nes (has a copynes installed but i don't think that matters)

NewRisingSun
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Re: Anyone has a real NTSC Incredible Crash Test Dummies car

Post by NewRisingSun » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:05 am

Thank-you very much for that video. That means that the Everdrive N8's MMC3 scanline counter is not completely accurate.

Now the challenge for me will be to implement the delayed rendering change in a way that gets its desired effect of preventing glitches in Micro Machines while keeping the jumpy text in Crash Dummies when emulated with MMC3C instead of MC-ACC.

Great Hierophant
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Re: Anyone has a real NTSC Incredible Crash Test Dummies car

Post by Great Hierophant » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:21 pm

This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x5IHXsJ2js was almost certainly taken with a real cartridge and shows "some jumpiness", but not as much as in FrankWDoom's video.

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koitsu
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Re: Anyone has a real NTSC Incredible Crash Test Dummies car

Post by koitsu » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:32 pm

I'm sorry that I couldn't help more on this issue (considering it's 5 years old) -- I've since sold all of my NES carts. Also, the YouTube videos in questions were lost during some clean-up I did. Again, sorry that I couldn't help more or re-do the tests (especially since I now have a 1080p 60fps digital camera).

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KRIKzz
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Re: Anyone has a real NTSC Incredible Crash Test Dummies car

Post by KRIKzz » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:05 am

NewRisingSun wrote:Thank-you very much for that video. That means that the Everdrive N8's MMC3 scanline counter is not completely accurate.
when emulated with MMC3C instead of MC-ACC.
This is because you can't force N8 to use regular MMC by changing byte in the end of rom. Full rom CRC calculation is too slow for handling on system CPU, instead N8 used few bytes checks in certain rom area for specific rom detection. With regular MMC3 screen shakes will back.

NewRisingSun
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Re: Anyone has a real NTSC Incredible Crash Test Dummies car

Post by NewRisingSun » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:01 am

Ah, interesting. I had no way of knowing.

Would it be possible to add NES 2.0 Submappers to properly differentiate between mapper variants, and limit such checks to ROMs with no NES 2.0 header?

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KRIKzz
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Re: Anyone has a real NTSC Incredible Crash Test Dummies car

Post by KRIKzz » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:10 am

NewRisingSun wrote:Ah, interesting. I had no way of knowing.

Would it be possible to add NES 2.0 Submappers to properly differentiate between mapper variants, and limit such checks to ROMs with no NES 2.0 header?
Actually i thinking about including nes 2.0 support

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KRIKzz
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Re: Anyone has a real NTSC Incredible Crash Test Dummies car

Post by KRIKzz » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:50 am

I did a small research around acclaim mapper. Seems like besides of neg edge triggering it ignores a12 if rendering turning off, also it expects a12 to be in low state more than two cpu cycles. As we know problems with Crash Dummies on regular MMC3 related to edge of a12 triggering, but with Mickey's Safari in Letterland is another story. It also shakes menu bar on regular mmc3, but not due the triggering edge of a12 , it happens if a12 clocking hits to the mement when PPU turn off the rendering. On attached screenshots shown such moment. Red color shown when ppu turned off and yelow dots shown false triggering which counted by MMC3 logic and ignored by MC-ACC.
However, i not sure how exactly MC-ACC ignores those cycles during turned off PPU, because it does not have enough connected address lines to decode PPU registers addresses and intercept writes to $2001, may be it require specific timings between A12 clocking or something

EDIT:
Ok, seems like i figure out how it working. Acclaim mapper counts every A12 pulse instead of waiting for long phase in low state. Counter clocking happens once per 8 A12 cycles at first cycle. Writing to $C001 resets pulse counter. On attached screenshot shown how real acclaim chip triggers IRQ not at first A12 pulse. Also i looked at few emulators and they all emulate this behavior incorrectly. In Mickey emulators fires second IRQ too early. It easy to check: With proper timings in bottom bar should be two lines between "in" and "letterland", but emulators have only one line. Also those 3 black boxes in right side of bar should have size 8x8 pixels, but emulators likely will render them 8x7
Attachments
Two lines with proper timings
Two lines with proper timings
Shifted counter phase
Shifted counter phase
Phase shift happens due the short rendering disabling
Phase shift happens due the short rendering disabling

NewRisingSun
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Re: Anyone has a real NTSC Incredible Crash Test Dummies car

Post by NewRisingSun » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:13 pm

This recording, which I believe to be from real hardware based on the line on the left and the buzzing sound in the audio, although none too clear, seems to show only one line between "in" and "letterland".
Acclaim mapper counts every A12 pulse instead of waiting for long phase in low state. Counter clocking happens once per 8 A12 cycles at first cycle.
"Unfiltered PA12 rise (or fall) with prescaler" would mean that the AC-MCC's scanline counter acts more like the J.Y. Company ASIC's.

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KRIKzz
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Re: Anyone has a real NTSC Incredible Crash Test Dummies car

Post by KRIKzz » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:15 pm

NewRisingSun wrote:This recording, which I believe to be from real hardware based on the line on the left and the buzzing sound in the audio, although none too clear, seems to show only one line between "in" and "letterland".
This video for sure recorded not from MC-ACC cart. Besides of lost line, bottom bar shakes time to time. I have real Mickey cartridge and it shows two lines and no shakes

NewRisingSun
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Re: Anyone has a real NTSC Incredible Crash Test Dummies car

Post by NewRisingSun » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:28 pm

What did the author of that video record it from, in 2007? The console seems to be real, but maybe the cartridge is not. Was the PowerPak available back then?

Anyway, this video shows two scanlines, also ostensibly from real hardware.

krzysiobal
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Re: Anyone has a real NTSC Incredible Crash Test Dummies car

Post by krzysiobal » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:24 am

Which chip do you mean by `AC-MCC`?
The DIP40-60 with non-standard pinout, called "AX5202P #2 (NTDEC?)" there?:
http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/MMC3_pinout

Just curious, because I loved to use the game `Doki Doki Yuuenchi` (which uses this chip) for testing consoles. It uses scanline counter twice on title screen, when the curtain drops. And this cartridge never caused any trouble on any console, but implementing this particular game to work correctly on hardware was tricky.

-

Second game that always bothered my mind was pirate japan Panic Restaurant (Wanpaku Kokkun no Gourmet World). On real hardware, when entering the Bonus Stage, there is weird split in half of screen that makes finishing impossible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D27STQYSigQ

However, when dumped and played in emulator, it works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK-xnARVnLI

Except that, game works fine. I've already soldered 220pf between PPU-A12 and GND thinking it might help, but nope.
Image Image

NewRisingSun
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Re: Anyone has a real NTSC Incredible Crash Test Dummies car

Post by NewRisingSun » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:38 am

Krzysiobal wrote:Which chip do you mean by `AC-MCC`?
The Acclaim MMC3 clone, used on licensed U.S. cartridges. Nothing to do with any AX5202 chips.

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