Homebrews with female characters

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Nikku4211
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Re: Homebrews with female characters

Post by Nikku4211 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:01 pm

DRW wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:41 pm
Nope, this doesn't count. That's not only a pure gameplay mechanic, it's even something that doesn't actually exist in-universe. In gameplay, you can die multiple times and respawn. However, this clearly doesn't happen within the "actual" universe of this franchise. Canonically, if Simon Belmont got killed by an opponent once, he would be dead. There are no loading points or extra lives for the "real" Simon Belmont.
Honestly, with all of the fantastical elements of the Castlevania series, I wouldn't be surprised if there actually was resurrection in the Castlevania universe that doesn't result in a mindless zombie. And besides, it would obviously take Simon way more than a couple of minutes to walk from a town to a castle in real life, especially since he has no horse. Even with loading times, the game takes less time than is realistically practical to go all the way from a town to a castle and fight some weird monsters.
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Re: Homebrews with female characters

Post by DRW » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:39 pm

Nikku4211 wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:01 pm
Honestly, with all of the fantastical elements of the Castlevania series, I wouldn't be surprised if there actually was resurrection in the Castlevania universe that doesn't result in a mindless zombie.
Sure there is resurrection. Dracula does it every few years. But what I mean: If Simon ever got killed, he wouldn't respawn at the last checkpoint and go on from there as if nothing happened. Extra lifes and checkpoints are just a gameplay mechanism, not an actual part of the lore. And this is probably true for most games.
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Re: Homebrews with female characters

Post by Pokun » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:44 pm

Sorry it was meant as a joke, playing on some of the frustrating moments in this game. There are unfairly placed enemies very close to the screen edge in some areas making you take a hit almost as soon as you enter if you are not ready (and probably even if you are). You get hit and fly back into the previous screen, and it can take several attempts until you manage to lash out the whip fast enough. In the FDS version some of these screen transitions have a loading times, making these moments even more painful.

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Re: Homebrews with female characters

Post by Oziphantom » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:45 pm

This is something WayForward's "The Mummy" does ; when you die you are actually a new agent and you have to kill the old Zombified one to get your stuff back.

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Re: Homebrews with female characters

Post by DRW » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:59 am

Oziphantom wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:45 pm
This is something WayForward's "The Mummy" does ; when you die you are actually a new agent and you have to kill the old Zombified one to get your stuff back.
:mrgreen: Yeah, that's a clever way to actually integrate the multiple lifes into the plot. And in one of the "Final Fantasy Legend" games, they had Odin resurrect you after you got to Valhalla.

But that's an exception. I doubt that, for example, the soldiers from "Contra" would actually fall from the sky again whenever they get shot.
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Re: Homebrews with female characters

Post by Nikku4211 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:24 am

DRW wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:59 am
:mrgreen: Yeah, that's a clever way to actually integrate the multiple lifes into the plot. And in one of the "Final Fantasy Legend" games, they had Odin resurrect you after you got to Valhalla.
When I was playing Kyuuyaku Megami Tensei the other day, when my character died(which, believe me, was a lot), you had this weird boating sequence where some guy named Charon appears and gives you the option to continue (while speaking in Papyrus) at the cost of half your money.

There's also this SMW hack called Aionios Dynami where every time you die, you get teleported to some place where this cloaked guy says that he's not ready to take someone who has died so young to 'the beyond'.
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Re: Homebrews with female characters

Post by calima » Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:28 am

I really liked Conker's approach to death. The first time you die you have this long conversation with the grim reaper, and it turns out squirrels have a cat-like loophole in the death agreement.

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Re: Homebrews with female characters

Post by Bregalad » Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:21 am

By the way, if you're looking for character development in old games, I would suggest the Game Boy game "Final Fantasy Adventure". That one has a movie-like plot and actual character growth.
Really ? I played through twice at least, and I dont remember much of that. I just remember being lost in dungeon hacking to attack every wall to discover secret passages, and having an inventory which was always overfilled.

Most of the story is in the first few hours of gameplay and then you go save the world on a journey.
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Re: Homebrews with female characters

Post by DRW » Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:13 am

Bregalad wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:21 am
Really ? I played through twice at least, and I dont remember much of that.
Well, can you name an 8-bit game that has more or a better storyline? It's a genuine question.

Bregalad wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:21 am
Most of the story is in the first few hours of gameplay and then you go save the world on a journey.
Yeah, o.k., the story kind of becomes less at around the 50-60 % mark where the gap between plot and pure gameplay gets wider. But not before the darkest moment in the hero's life. And even then, they managed to put in some story (unfreezing the people in the castle, getting the rusty sword, finding the sunken tower) and drama (the hero's low point and Bogart's reaction, the final scene with Marcie the robot and of course the ending).

Also, even the first half alone is already massively more plot than, for example, "A Link to the Past".
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Re: Homebrews with female characters

Post by Pokun » Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:16 am

When saying (non-Adventure) 8-bit games with lots of good story, the first game I think about is Ninja Gaiden. Story is told in cut-scenes between gameplay segments, just like in FF Adventure. Otherwise in 8-bit RPGs, the story is usually told through NPC dialogue with only very occasional cut-scenes, so there are usually no character development at all. But since you often create the characters, it's not really something that is possible to have.

DRW wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:59 am
Oziphantom wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:45 pm
This is something WayForward's "The Mummy" does ; when you die you are actually a new agent and you have to kill the old Zombified one to get your stuff back.
:mrgreen: Yeah, that's a clever way to actually integrate the multiple lifes into the plot. And in one of the "Final Fantasy Legend" games, they had Odin resurrect you after you got to Valhalla.

But that's an exception. I doubt that, for example, the soldiers from "Contra" would actually fall from the sky again whenever they get shot.
It's a common exception in orthodox RPGs, including all DQ and FF games for the NES. 0 HP usually equals death in these games, but they take place in a world where death can be cured if you have an experienced priest doing a non-trivial resurrection ritual. This is an in-universe thing, and sometimes resurrection rituals are part of the story. There are usually strict rules that must be followed, for example the body must still be somewhat intact to be able to call back the spirit to it, as priests usually can't cure impossible wounds with too many missing body parts. In mainstream games like DQ and FF, this is usually simplified so that it's enough that you have enough money to donate to the church.
The tradition is from Dungeons & Dragons where letting priests have a resurrection spell was necessary to give players another chance with dying characters that they have worked hard on, if the DM allows.

In FF2 and FF3 there are just unattended temples you pray in or holy springs you soak in to revive for free, and Phoenix Downs are also more common, making the non-trivial resurrection ritual quite trivial gameplay-wise. And in later FF games, 0 HP just means you are wounded and unable to fight, as this gameplay mechanic would be hard to incorporate with the story.

FF Legand/SaGa was made by the RPG veteran Akitoshi Kawazu, who also had an important role in FF1 and FF2 (but didn't return to FF until Crystal Chronicles), and his games tends to have a mix of very traditional and very non-traditional RPG features. The various reviving mechanisms in the SaGa series is a good example of both.

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Re: Homebrews with female characters

Post by DRW » Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:01 am

Pokun wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:16 am
When saying (non-Adventure) 8-bit games with lots of good story
I'm not saying non-adventure games, I'm saying any games: Find me anything that can rival "Final Fantasy Adventure" in terms of plot, adventure or not.

Pokun wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:16 am
the first game I think about is Ninja Gaiden.
This has a good story for a sidescroller, but in my opinion it's not nearly in the realm of "Final Fantasy Adventure". It's pretty much on the level of a two-part TV episode in terms of scope. "Final Fantasy Adventure" on the other hand would be the entire 13 episodes of a TV show or a massively long movie.

Also, the story in "Ninja Gaiden" is relatively detached from the actual gameplay:

You have some guy steal a statue. Next is a regular level. It's not even a chase level, just a plain old level. Then Ryu returns, but for some reason, you don't have to play the same level in reverse. Looks like the way back isn't dangerous anymore.

Or Ryu falls down a trap door. And this simply leads to just another underground level with enemies etc. instead of an enclosed cell: Why did the bad guy simply send him to the floor below?

Or right in the beginning: Irene frees you from the cell and in the end, she says: "Someone's coming." That "someone" is apparently the same bunch of regular enemies that simply roam the levels as always and the fact that "someone's coming" (i.e. someone is looking for Ryu in his cell or whatever) is never brought up again.

Pokun wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:16 am
Story is told in cut-scenes between gameplay segments, just like in FF Adventure.
The cutcenes in "Final Fantasy Adventure" are massively different from the ones in "Ninja Gaiden". "Ninja Gaiden" simply presents you drawn artworks. "Final Fantasy Adventure" has the cutscenes happen with the actual sprites in the actual environment. The plot is ingrained into the game itself.

Pokun wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:16 am
Otherwise in 8-bit RPGs, the story is usually told through NPC dialogue with only very occasional cut-scenes, so there are usually no character development at all. But since you often create the characters, it's not really something that is possible to have.
Whether you create the player character has nothing to do with the way the story of the world is presented.

Example:

"Final Fantasy" (NES): You enter a town that the pirates are attacking right now. But despite that, you can freely move around, nobody tried to stop you at the entrance, and even the NPCs are just standing there as always. If it wasn't for their dialogs, you wouldn't see any difference to other towns.
The "attacking" pirates are a single non-moving NPC that you speak to and then it goes into a battle. Afterwards, they disappear and the people tell you how grateful they are for freeing them from the pirates.

Contrast this with "Final Fantasy Adventure" when the evil empire is attacking a town:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=di5Vhk3AEUc&t=44m19s
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Re: Homebrews with female characters

Post by Pokun » Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:58 am

If we include adventure games there are probably tons of them with more story than FF Adventure. For NES most of them are in Japanese, and often on FDS. I'm not going to argue about what game has better story than FF Adventure, there are many games with a good story.


Ninja Gaiden cut-scenes are visually different, but I wouldn't say they are mechanically massively different. It's still cut-scenes where the player have no control other than turning page like in a book, dialogue happen sequentially, and scenes are usually in a specific order to make the story progress. This is very different from those RPGs where the story is told indirectly via hints scattered around the game, usually in NPC dialogue which happens in the order of the player's choice (FF Adventure of course also does this in addition to cut-scenes).

There is one thing that is very different from Ninja Gaiden cut-scenes though, and that is that there are no transitions before and after the cut-scene, since it's using the same sprites and map as is used in gameplay. There may be enemies on the screen that must be defeated after the cut-scene has ended. This makes for bigger integration into the gameplay as you said. I remember Kojima saying in an interview after releasing Metal Gear Solid, that the reason he used the same 3D models in cut-scenes as in gameplay instead of using pre-rendered FMV, is because he wanted this connection between gameplay and cut-scenes. FMV scenes tend to make you put down the controller and watch the scene to the end like a movie, then pick up the controller again and play, and he didn't want that distinction between cut-scene and gameplay (ironically MGS games tends to have very long movie-like cut-scenes).

Whether you create the player character has nothing to do with the way the story of the world is presented.
...
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that having player-created characters means you can't really have that much character development involved in the story, only with pre-made characters. In FF1, DQ1 and DQ3 you create all party members yourself, and even just giving the character a line of dialogue would force a personality to the character that may clash with what the player had in mind (DQ3 actually do this anyway, although they are very generic lines in certain places such as in the puff-puff room, and they are the same for all characters of the same gender). What games can do is give the player various pre-determined options that can affect both the character and the world around them.

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Re: Homebrews with female characters

Post by Bregalad » Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:47 am

DRW wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:13 am
Well, can you name an 8-bit game that has more or a better storyline? It's a genuine question.
Challenge accepted.

Metal Slader Glory ?
DRW wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:13 am
Yeah, o.k., the story kind of becomes less at around the 50-60 % mark where the gap between plot and pure gameplay gets wider. But not before the darkest moment in the hero's life. And even then, they managed to put in some story (unfreezing the people in the castle, getting the rusty sword, finding the sunken tower) and drama (the hero's low point and Bogart's reaction, the final scene with Marcie the robot and of course the ending).

Also, even the first half alone is already massively more plot than, for example, "A Link to the Past".
To be honnest I forgot about the sotry of FF adventure almost entierely and only remember about the gameplay, so I can't tell. I didn't go very far into A Link to the Past but there was only a very simplistic story for what I can remember.
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Re: Homebrews with female characters

Post by DRW » Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:19 pm

Pokun wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:58 am
If we include adventure games there are probably tons of them with more story than FF Adventure.
Probably. Or probably not. That's the big question. I used to think that "Final Fantasy" has a good plot, but when I actually looked at it: It's pretty much almost nothing.

So, do you know one of those story-heavy games firsthand?

Pokun wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:58 am
Ninja Gaiden cut-scenes are visually different, but I wouldn't say they are mechanically massively different. It's still cut-scenes where the player have no control other than turning page like in a book, dialogue happen sequentially, and scenes are usually in a specific order to make the story progress.
Sure, they work by pressing A. But the ones in "Ninja Gaiden" are detached from the game: The stuff in the cutscenes often doesn't really match the "feeling" of the game.
As I said: You wake up in a prison cell. And Irene encourages you to escape because "someone's coming". Not only is that "someone" nobody in particular. The way also doesn't lead to any kind of civilization, but to some platforms high above the ground, with mountains in the background, even though the place where Ryu got knocked unconscious was in some large city. And the next door is to an ancient building where one of the game's bosses awaits you. This fits not at all with a coherent plot.

Or take just the intro scene where Ryu's father gets killed. Two ninjas jump at each other with swords. But later when we find out who killed Ryu's father, it's that three meter high wizard guy with a horned mask who can summon lightning and shoot it as balls. So, I'm supposed to believe that the guy in the gray clothes from the intro is Malth?

In "Final Fantasy Adventure", by the very nature that the cutscenes happen within the actual game world, the story is much closer to the game's reality.

Bregalad wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:47 am
Metal Slader Glory ?
O.k., fine. But that game is pretty much an interactive novel and not a typical game in the same sense that "Final Fantasy Adventure" or "Ninja Gaiden" are.
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Re: Homebrews with female characters

Post by Pokun » Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:31 pm

DRW wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:19 pm
Pokun wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:58 am
If we include adventure games there are probably tons of them with more story than FF Adventure.
Probably. Or probably not. That's the big question. I used to think that "Final Fantasy" has a good plot, but when I actually looked at it: It's pretty much almost nothing.
Yeah Final Fantasy has like zero cut-scenes. Everything is told through NPC dialogue (the plot still gets quite complex near the end though). DQ2 has like one cut-scene in the entire game (the one in the lava cave boss room), not counting the opening and endings. Now of course these games are from 1987 and FF Adventure is from 1991, the same year as FF4.

Pokun wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:58 am
Ninja Gaiden cut-scenes are visually different, but I wouldn't say they are mechanically massively different. It's still cut-scenes where the player have no control other than turning page like in a book, dialogue happen sequentially, and scenes are usually in a specific order to make the story progress.
Sure, they work by pressing A. But the ones in "Ninja Gaiden" are detached from the game: The stuff in the cutscenes often doesn't really match the "feeling" of the game.
As I said: You wake up in a prison cell. And Irene encourages you to escape because "someone's coming". Not only is that "someone" nobody in particular. The way also doesn't lead to any kind of civilization, but to some platforms high above the ground, with mountains in the background, even though the place where Ryu got knocked unconscious was in some large city. And the next door is to an ancient building where one of the game's bosses awaits you. This fits not at all with a coherent plot.

Or take just the intro scene where Ryu's father gets killed. Two ninjas jump at each other with swords. But later when we find out who killed Ryu's father, it's that three meter high wizard guy with a horned mask who can summon lightning and shoot it as balls. So, I'm supposed to believe that the guy in the gray clothes from the intro is Malth?
The ones coming are the thugs Jaquio sends after the statue. Although most enemies are never mentioned in the game they generally do have names. I do think the cut-scenes are good at setting the mood. For example when you are chased it feels like you need to run and when you are chasing Basaquer (the ninja) it feels like you must stop him before he gets away, although the only thing you are running from is the timer. But I see what you mean, there are many things the cut-scenes don't tell, and the action sequences tells only a very abstract story that is hard to fit with the story (is there really that many birds, bats and leopards in Jaquio's private army?).
And yeah I also always thought it very strange that Bloody Malth was a ninja. I was curious and looked it up, and it turns out he is indeed a modern ninja like Ryu, but also inherited a cursed shield and a mask which he uses against Ryu instead.

DRW wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:19 pm
So, do you know one of those story-heavy games firsthand?
Sure but you seem to have changed your mind about adventure games:
DRW wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:19 pm
Bregalad wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:47 am
Metal Slader Glory ?
O.k., fine. But that game is pretty much an interactive novel and not a typical game in the same sense that "Final Fantasy Adventure" or "Ninja Gaiden" are.
If you are not counting adventure games that are like interactive novels there's no reason to talk about adventure games.

Anyway here is a non-exhaustive list of adventure games for Famicom/NES. Far from all of them are story-heavy (ex. Shadowgate), and I haven't played most of them since most are in Japanese (which I couldn't understand until more recently) so I can't say for sure. I will play them someday when I have time.

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