THIS BIBLE.

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BioMechanical Dude
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THIS BIBLE.

Post by BioMechanical Dude » Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:24 am

[In reply to THIS ASSHOLE.]

WARNING: RANT!
Man, I'm tired of all the sexism, racism, homophobia going on in the world. Especially the homophobia (I may be white and male, but I'm not straight, so it affects me the most). Like, seriously, why should there be so much hate towards people who are different in some sort of way?! Can't we all just be OK with each other?! All because of the stupid evolutionary instinct to be afraid of what's different, without considering whether it's actually good or bad. Because of this now we have all kinds of extremists telling everyone what's right and what's wrong. A lot of Christians are doing so, which is quite baffling, considering what Jesus was actually trying to teach. And we also have Donald Trump trying to chase away all the Muslims and Mexicans... God! I'm so fucking sick of all this.
RANT END

Sorry, had to get it out somewhere. Here's some food for thought: our development as a civilization is quite strange, when you think about it. We're advancing technologically at an incredibly fast pace (and still gaining speed), but ideologically we're really slow. Makes me wonder if there are alien civilizations somewhere in this galaxy and how this is going with them.
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Re: THIS ASSHOLE.

Post by tepples » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:30 am

BioMechanical Dude wrote:I'm tired of all the sexism, racism, homophobia going on in the world. Especially the homophobia (I may be white and male, but I'm not straight, so it affects me the most). Like, seriously, why should there be so much hate towards people who are different in some sort of way?!
Thousands of years ago, before the invention of modern deterrents such as police, people ran the risk every day of losing their life or liberty to "people who are different in some sort of way". This sort of identity politics was a defense mechanism. The institution of homophobia in cultures dominated by Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) existed to create an us-and-them relationship between followers and their more homo-tolerant neighbors. I don't know the Qur'an, but the Mosaic law (Leviticus 18:22, 20:13) and the letters of Paul of Tarsus (Romans 1:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9) both condemn male homosexual contact as detestable.

The Judeo-Christian prohibition of adultery and male homosexual contact also acted as a means of containing sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), as did the prohibition of consuming blood (Genesis 9:4; Acts 15:28). When a spike in Kaposi's sarcoma cases among gay men was first discovered, it was first labeled "gay cancer". As researchers discovered more about the causes, it was called "gay-related immunodeficiency syndrome" (GRIDS), then "acquired immunodeficiency syndrome" (AIDS), then "human immunodeficiency virus" (HIV). Even a blood transfusion recipient famously died of AIDS despite his virginity. Yet some Christian denominations routinely point out that people who abstained from promiscuous sexual contact and from consuming blood through transfusion were unaffected.
And we also have Donald Trump trying to chase away all the Muslims and Mexicans
Even though I don't support Mr. Trump, I try to be precise about describing what he preaches. He wants to chase away not members of particular ethnic groups who were born here as much as people who commit the crime of trespassing on United States property. In fact, deportation of these trespassers is part of Mr. Trump's jobs program, as he plans to put unemployed citizens in the jobs that trespassers had filled.
Here's some food for thought: our development as a civilization is quite strange, when you think about it. We're advancing technologically at an incredibly fast pace (and still gaining speed), but ideologically we're really slow.
Ideology always falls behind technology because of the domination of political processes by older people (gerontocracy) on the basis that people with more experience will govern more effectively (alleged meritocracy), despite the general aversion of older people to trying new things. Younger people have to wait for older, less tolerant people to die off. And non-cultural tendencies, such as the tendency to create us-and-them relationships in the first place, take the longest to die off because genes change even more slowly.

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Drew Sebastino
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Re: THIS ASSHOLE.

Post by Drew Sebastino » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:49 am

I consider myself a Christian, but I honestly believe that people have their own ideas of what they like and what they don't, and they say "hey look, it's in the Bible!" so that gives them the justification to bully everyone else about it. In other words, they're not doing it to follow the Bible, they're using it as an excuse to impose their beliefs on everyone else without being criticized, because it's "in the Bible". I think people like to use the Bible as more of a weapon than anything. I also hate how ambiguous the Bible is. You can prove me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I've ever outright seen the Bible say "homosexual" or anything like that, but give strong indicators like "man with irregular sexual preferences" or something like that. It could be translation, but I don't know. What I hate though, is that there's stuff just as ambiguous condemning women in the Bible, and people aren't preaching that, because they like to pick an choose to see what will benefit them the most.
tepples wrote:Thousands of years ago, before the invention of modern deterrents such as police, people ran the risk every day of losing their life or liberty to "people who are different in some sort of way". This sort of identity politics was a defense mechanism. The institution of homophobia in cultures dominated by Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) existed to create an us-and-them relationship between followers and their more homo-tolerant neighbors. I don't know the Qur'an, but the Mosaic law (Leviticus 18:22, 20:13) and the letters of Paul of Tarsus (Romans 1:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9) both condemn male homosexual contact as detestable.The Judeo-Christian prohibition of adultery and male homosexual contact also acted as a means of containing sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), as did the prohibition of consuming blood (Genesis 9:4; Acts 15:28). When a spike in Kaposi's sarcoma cases among gay men was first discovered, it was first labeled "gay cancer". As researchers discovered more about the causes, it was called "gay-related immunodeficiency syndrome" (GRIDS), then "acquired immunodeficiency syndrome" (AIDS), then "human immunodeficiency virus" (HIV). Even a blood transfusion recipient famously died of AIDS despite his virginity. Yet some Christian denominations routinely point out that people who abstained from promiscuous sexual contact and from consuming blood through transfusion were unaffected.
Being blunt, are we trying to say the Bible is outdated in certain ways? To be honest, I agree. I'm not sure if it makes me any less Christian, if that's possible, but whatever.

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Re: THIS ASSHOLE.

Post by tepples » Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:26 am

Espozo wrote:people have their own ideas of what they like and what they don't, and they say "hey look, it's in the Bible!" so that gives them the justification to bully everyone else about it.
So true. Peter warned us about people who would twist scripture to push their own agenda.--2 Peter 3:16.
You can prove me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I've ever outright seen the Bible say "homosexual" or anything like that, but give strong indicators like "man with irregular sexual preferences" or something like that. It could be translation, but I don't know.
Use of "men who lie with men" and the like at 1 Corinthians 6:9 is euphemistic translation. Paul actually used the Greek terms for "top" and "bottom" in a gay relationship. Likewise, most translations of Philippians 3:8 excise the word for "shit".
Being blunt, are we trying to say the Bible is outdated in certain ways?
Yes, parts of the Bible become obsolete as they are fulfilled. For example, after the ransom sacrifice, we're no longer under the 613 commandments of Mosaic law but instead under "grace" (undeserved kindness). Grace is based on two commandments that formed the founding principles of the law: love the Lord and love your neighbor. (Matthew 22:36-40) Loving your neighbor includes not cheating on him or her, and it also means avoiding passing an STD. It also includes, for example, dressing modestly so as not to distract others. The debate is over to what extent loving the Lord includes abstaining from otherwise victimless sins that don't detract from loving your neighbor, such as gay monogamy, use of nonabortive birth control, and the like, especially now that STDs are better understood and infant mortality is solved in the developed world.

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Re: THIS ASSHOLE.

Post by DRW » Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:30 pm

Espozo wrote:You can prove me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I've ever outright seen the Bible say "homosexual" or anything like that, but give strong indicators like "man with irregular sexual preferences" or something like that.
The Bible is pretty clear that it refers to sex between two men and not some unnamed irregular sexual preference:

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (Leviticus 18:22)

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: / And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." (Romans 1:26-27)

If you believe this is some kind of translation error, you need to explain what exactly is mistranslated here and what's actually in the original text.

Furthermore, you should explain why exactly you find it unlikely that people 2000-4000 years ago were against homosexuality.
They had the death sentence for blasphemy and unruly children. And they basically treated women like property. Why is it so unlikely that these primitive desert dwellers actually condemned homosexuality?

Do you seriously believe that they were cool with gay people and that these commandments mean something completely different?
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Re: THIS ASSHOLE.

Post by Drew Sebastino » Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:39 pm

Simmer down! :lol:
DRW wrote:Do you seriously believe that they were cool with gay people and that these commandments mean something completely different?
I DON'T KNOW, DO I?!?!?

Did you even read what I wrote in that I wasn't sure, not that I was objectively stating a fact? You act like I did some sort of personal attack toward you.

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Re: THIS ASSHOLE.

Post by dougeff » Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:48 pm

Not to jump into an argument... but, other things the Bible says, near the aforementioned passage...
You shall not plow with an ox and a donkey together. 11"You shall not wear a material mixed of wool and linen together. 12"You shall make yourself tassels on the four corners of your garment with which you cover yourself.
Also...
And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
In other words. No shrimp, lobster, calamari, etc.

Just food for thought.


And women, on their monthly period, shall be considered 'unclean' and forbidden to touch.
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Re: THIS ASSHOLE.

Post by Drew Sebastino » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:28 pm

I'm not sure where we're going with this... :lol:

Other than people like to pick and choose what they want to believe, which I guess can be a lesson here. Anyway... :lol:

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Re: THIS ASSHOLE.

Post by dougeff » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:39 pm

Yeah, you got my point.

I know lots of people who insist on 'the Bible is absolutely 100% to be followed' when talking about homosexuality. Ask them if they have any clothes with mixed fabrics, or ever eat dairy with beef (cheeseburger), and suddenly they take a 'culturally relative' position of right and wrong. It comes accoss as selective to me.
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Re: THIS ASSHOLE.

Post by tepples » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:43 pm

dougeff wrote:Not to jump into an argument... but, other things the Bible says, near the aforementioned passage...
[...]
It comes accoss as selective to me.
This passage lists commandments in the Mosaic law. But the Mosaic law is obsolete in Christianity. Many Christians reconcile this obsolete status with Paul's condemnation of male homosexual contact by claiming that only those Old Testament sins reiterated in the New Testament are still sins under grace. They back this up with Peter's vision of unclean food, claiming that "God has made clean" many formerly unclean things. (Acts 10:9-16) To Christians following this interpretation, murder, adultery, and male homosexual contact are still sins because Paul mentions them, but wearing linsey-woolsey, eating unscaled seafood (ObNES: calamari is worth big points in Memblers' Munchie Attack), and interacting with menstruating women aren't.

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Re: THIS ASSHOLE.

Post by DRW » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:53 pm

Espozo wrote:You act like I did some sort of personal attack toward you.
Do I? I don't think so.
In fact, I find this pretty amusing: Whenever Christians are confronted with stuff like that, the first reaction is: "Hm, maybe this is just a translation error."
As if they really believe that the Bible would suddenly become a book of higher science and that all the contradictions and errors and cruelties and other nonsense suddenly disappeared if the Bible was just translated correctly.

No, you didn't state it as fact. But you opened up the possibility. So, I asked you: What could possibly be the true meaning of the text? If you consider it a likely explanation, what do you think is the likely correct translation?
Espozo wrote:Simmer down!
I don't know why you, the person with the big, bold, yellow, all-caps text thinks that my post was intended to be angry.

Also, you said:
Espozo wrote:You can prove me if I'm wrong
Which I did. But for some reason, you seem to have a problem with it now.
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Re: THIS ASSHOLE.

Post by Drew Sebastino » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:00 pm

DRW wrote:Whenever Christians are confronted with stuff like that
Oh, because I'm the biggest Christian ever.
DRW wrote:As if they really believe that the Bible would suddenly become a book of higher science and that all the contradictions and errors and cruelties and other nonsense suddenly disappeared if the Bible was just translated correctly.
Thanks for your opinion.
DRW wrote:I don't know why you, the person with the big, bold, yellow, all-caps text thinks that my post was intended to be angry.
Take a look at the sequence of our posts. It's like punching someone and then asking why they're angry, because you weren't.

You've been known for bullshit in the past.

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Re: THIS ASSHOLE.

Post by DRW » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:08 pm

Espozo wrote:You've been known for bullshit in the past.
Why do I keep getting the feeling that you're very angry in regards to this topic?
Espozo wrote:Thanks for your opinion.
That's also always funny: People always say thank you specifically when they're pissed with you. If I had said anything that you had genuinely liked, you wouldn't have thanked me for my post. But you thank me for something that pisses you off in an attempt to seem polite.

That's like when a bum asks you for money: If you give him a dollar, he says "Thanks". If you don't give him a dollar, he says: "Thank you anyway, sir. I wish you a lovely day. God bless you."
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Re: THIS ASSHOLE.

Post by Drew Sebastino » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:28 pm

DRW wrote:Why do I keep getting the feeling that you're very angry in regards to this topic?
I'm "very angry" in regards to you, because I have no clue what you're trying to do here. I have the feeling that you're just trying to dissuade people from being Christian based on some personal experience you've have, but I don't know why because it's not for the good of me or anyone else, including you.
DRW wrote:That's also always funny: People always say thank you specifically when they're pissed with you. If I had said anything that you had genuinely liked, you wouldn't have thanked me for my post. But you thank me for something that pisses you off in an attempt to seem polite.
I'm trying to be so polite right now.

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Re: THIS ASSHOLE.

Post by DRW » Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:45 pm

Espozo wrote:I'm "very angry" in regards to you, because I have no clue what you're trying to do here.
You asked people to disprove you if you're wrong and I did.
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