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 Post subject: NES fighting games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:09 pm 
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Was there ever an attempt to create a really good fighting game for the NES?

Apart from some very basic pre-"Street Fighter II" games like "Yie Ar Kung Fu", there is only one actual fighting game in the "modern" sense: "Turtles Tournament Fighters". It's a bit stiff in my opinion.

Then there are countless pirate games and most of them are crap.

So, has anything like that been attempted in the homebrew scene or am I missing some licensed game? (Apart from that one with the robots where the arms and legs only exist of separate balls.)

After all, the Game Boy had a whole bunch of good fighting games. "Mortal Kombat II" was a very good port. And the games by Takara ("Battle Arena Toshinden", "King of Fighters"). "Street Fighter II" was total shit, though. But "Street Fighter Alpha" for the Game Boy Color was very good again.

I know that the NES has the problem with more than eight sprites on the scanline. But, well, you don't necessarily have to create a game with huge, screen-filling characters. 16 x 32 or 16 x 40 should be big enough for detailed characters. Then you still have two more sprite widths per character for punches and kicks as well as a projectile. So, the flickering would only be an issue when a fighter is lying on the ground.
(Besides, I'm not so fond of the idea to create one fighter as the background since I prefer backgrounds that look interesting and not too plain.)

What I have no idea of: How do you implement the computer AI in a fighting game, so that it doesn't suck, but actually behaves like the real games?

And are there any other problematic things?

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 Post subject: Re: NES fighting games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:21 pm 
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I think the problematic thing is that it's the NES.

There's nothing I can think of that theoretically prevents a game with Street Fighter II calibre gameplay on the NES, but it's just not a great target platform in general. The question is, why build a good fighting game on the NES when you could do it on almost any other platform and have an easier time of it?

I mention Street Fighter II specifically, because it was really the first fighting game of real quality, ever, in my opinion. When it came out, the 16-bit era had already begun, so by the time we had a model of what a good fighting game should even look like, NES development was already on its way out. The money for better games was mostly being sunk into the new platforms instead. (GameBoy, on the other hand, was strong while the 16-bit era of home consoles was taking place.)

Pirate games are crap because pirates don't care about quality. Quick cash-in ports have the same motivational problem, good ports are rare (and it's usually because they randomly got some passionate+competent developer assigned to them by accident). The amount of homebrew devs who can make a quality game is tiny, and probably none of those people wanted to make a fighting game for NES yet. That's basically it.


Last edited by rainwarrior on Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NES fighting games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:35 pm 
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DRW wrote:
Apart from that one with the robots where the arms and legs only exist of separate balls.

You seem to have dismissed Joy Mech Fight because of its graphics, but I think it might have been the best fighting game on the Famicom.


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 Post subject: Re: NES fighting games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:43 pm 
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rainwarrior wrote:
The question is, why build a good fighting game on the NES when you could do it on almost any other platform and have an easier time of it?

Because if I want to have a good fighting game on the Super Nintendo, it literally takes 0 seconds to create one: They are already there.

But a good fighting game for the NES, that would really be something new.

I'm not sure whether it should be a port of an existing game, though, or a completely new one. "Street Fighter II" on the NES that plays exactly like the Super Nintendo version (apart from fewer attack methods due to the buttons) would probably be amazing. But it could be a bit too much and end up being undoable.

rainwarrior wrote:
The amount of homebrew devs who can make a quality game is tiny, and probably none of those people wanted to make a fighting game for NES yet. That's basically it.

Personally, I don't see creating the game physics as too much of a problem if it's an original property and the characters are therefore designed around the graphical limitations. (Why do all the fighters have to do flips when they jump forward? Even Zangief does this in the arcade version.)

The one thing that I have absolutely no idea of is the AI. Is there anything on the internet that explains how the computer opponents in fighting games were done?

rainwarrior wrote:
You seem to have dismissed Joy Mech Fight because of its graphics, but I think it might have been the best fighting game on the Famicom.

Not the graphics per se, more the strange fighters with their dislocated hands and feet. It's just not the same as playing with actual human characters like in "Street Fighter" or "Mortal Kombat".

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 Post subject: Re: NES fighting games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:47 pm 
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There's one pretty decent and entertaining game you didn't mention: Joy Mecha Fight. It's Famicom-only but nothing prevents it from working on an NES. This game got around the sprite limit by making all fighters robots with disjointed limbs, à la Vectorman.

There are also a few fighting games for the Datach Famicom add-on (which apart from the barcode reader, was just a regular mapper), the most notable being Dragon Ball Z and Yuu Yuu Hakusho games. The sprite limit wasn't much of an issue due to the small size of the characters.

EDIT: Joy Mecha Fight was mentioned.


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 Post subject: Re: NES fighting games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:01 pm 
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rainwarrior wrote:
The question is, why build a good fighting game on the NES when you could do it on almost any other platform and have an easier time of it?

To get included on the next collaborative NES multicart perhaps?

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The amount of homebrew devs who can make a quality game is tiny, and probably none of those people wanted to make a fighting game for NES yet. That's basically it.

I gather from previous topics on this forum that a lot of people want to make a fighting game. They just lack the ability to draw 100 frames of animation for each character's moves.

Make a pencil test of Little Red Riding Hood and some furfag doing all their moves, and we'll talk.


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 Post subject: Re: NES fighting games
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:49 pm 
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I am currently making a game with a "large" (18x37 during idle) main character that has 69 unique animation frames. (Though a few are only one sprite different from other frames.) It's... not all that much fun to manage all that data. The code of a fighting game is not really tough (on a basic level. All the design stuff like preventing infinites could be), but managing the graphics, and managing the graphics around the sprite limitations is not all that fun. Edit: There are single frames that exceed the sprites per scanline limitation, and that's a single character. If you do things not with sprites, it gets harder for other reasons.

I've certainly considered making a fighting game with tinier characters, but like rainwarrior stated I may as well not do it on NES.

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 Post subject: Re: NES fighting games
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:44 am 
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I would mention Street Fighter III but it's a pirate game. It's the only pirate one that has physics even remotely resembling that of most fighting games though (everything else is lousy as fuck), and has some pretty damn good graphics. The biggest downsides are the music (ugh) and sprite flicker (it uses overlaid sprites a lot).

Once I had a magazine including all the special moves for the characters in that game (this variant was that popular over here). It took up two pages to list them all =P


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 Post subject: Re: NES fighting games
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 5:48 am 
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That Street Fighter III game is hands down the best pirate fighting game on the NES. It's almost commercial quality, IMO. Despite the flickering, the sprites look amazing. Had Capcom decided to release Street Fighter II on the NES, that would be the way to go.

It got some game magazine coverage here in Brazil back in the day too.


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 Post subject: Re: NES fighting games
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:26 am 
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Another example of a good fighthing game (on my opinion) is Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3. Despite the repetitive music and some flickering, the sprites looks pretty nice and the characters can be controlled quite well. But the game is an unlicensed one.

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 Post subject: Re: NES fighting games
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:21 am 
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tepples wrote:
Make a pencil test of Little Red Riding Hood and some furfag doing all their moves, and we'll talk.

What an odd coincidence! I had just animated such characters a few days ago, for a friends' furry porn game, as side characters! Furfag away! :P

Their inclusion was a silly joke, on my part.
(The game itself, is a beat-em up styled fighting game.)


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 Post subject: Re: NES fighting games
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:43 pm 
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I feel obligated to link to this thread, which quickly derailed about how to make a good fighting game animaiton demo on the NES due to a project I had.


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 Post subject: Re: NES fighting games
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:16 pm 
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Today, I found out that there is actually another fighting game for the NES called "Street Heroes". It's an unlicensed title by Sachen and pretty crappy, but the interesting thing is: It's actually a game with original characters, not a pirate version of an existing franchise like "Street Fighter", "Tekken" or that "Super Mario Kart"-based game.

So, my question: Since I never really checked those unlicensed and pirate or Chinese games, is there any other fighting game for the NES or Famicom among the list of unlicensed games that is an original property with its own characters that aren't taken from other games?
Of course, I'm only talking about the "modern" "Street Fighter II"-inspired fighting games. Not "Way of the Exploding Fist" or something like that.

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 Post subject: Re: NES fighting games
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:30 pm 
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Another original property fighting game: "Fighting Hero III". (But not the first "Fighting Hero". That one is a rip-off of the original "Street Fighter".)

Just as crappy as the rest, though.

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 Post subject: Re: NES fighting games
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:20 am 
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tepples wrote:
Make a pencil test of Little Red Riding Hood and some furfag doing all their moves, and we'll talk.

Coincidentally, I had a concept for a fairy tale-themed fighting game that would include Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf. It would also have Alice and Dorothy Gale.

Now if only I could have some time off from work once in a while to do some sketches... :|

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