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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:32 pm 
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tepples wrote:
Windows 7 on any PC with a Skylake or newer Intel CPU is unsupported.

Okay, but this has nothing to do with the question of whether it's worth taking the "upgrade" to Windows 10. If you bought that CPU, you can't actually consider whether to use 7 or 10.

tepples wrote:
If one is a programmer: The UWP SDK. Or is targeting UWP in the first place part of the tautology?

Yes. It's exactly the same as the previous thing. If you want to target a particular platform of course you might need to use it. What kind of useful information is this supposed to be? This has nothing to do with whether Windows 10 or UWP has any real value to the user, which is the actual question posed.

That's also what I was getting at when I called the "upgrade now to avoid paying later" argument idiotic; though partly I just meant an idiotic (or irritating) strategy on the part of Microsoft, but you're parroting it here. You need to answer the question about why I'll want to pay for it later before there's any reason to take it "free" now. Is Windows 10 going to be the dominant operating system in 4 years? Am I going to be using the same computer? Am I going to buy a new computer with no OEM operating system and be able to transfer an "upgraded" Windows 10 from my old computer? (This would violate the OEM license, AFAIK.) I don't think it's very clear that there's going to be any savings at all here. It seems like a completely bogus argument to me.

tepples wrote:
The initial list of Xbox Play Anywhere titles (source) includes Gears of War 4, Forza Horizon 3, ReCore, Sea of Thieves, Halo Wars 2, Scalebound, Killer Instinct Season 3, State of Decay 2, Ark: Survival Evolved, Cuphead, We Happy Few, and Crackdown 3.

Yes, that's relevant. I'm not personally interested in any of these games, but it's a valid answer.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:47 pm 
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On my Skylake laptop, Windows 7 was an OEM preinstall option. I do not see what stops one from using it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:02 pm 
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rainwarrior wrote:
tepples wrote:
If one is a programmer: The UWP SDK. Or is targeting UWP in the first place part of the tautology?

Yes. It's exactly the same as the previous thing. If you want to target a particular platform of course you might need to use it. What kind of useful information is this supposed to be? This has nothing to do with whether Windows 10 or UWP has any real value to the user, which is the actual question posed.

In addition to Xbox Play Anywhere, I can think of two more user stories, both involving development for a particular other Microsoft platform, where support for UWP app development has value to a user:

"My friend bought a phone running the Windows Phone 8.1 or Windows 10 Mobile operating system. I want to make an app that will run on his phone. Only UWP apps and web apps run on Windows Phone 8 and later. Therefore, if I want to develop an app for my friend, it must be UWP or web. And Visual Studio features for UWP apps require Windows 8.1 or later."

"I have used Windows 7 to develop a PC game, and now I want to bring it to Xbox One. But building apps that run in developer mode on an Xbox One requires a preview version of the Windows SDK, which in turn requires Windows 10. (source)"

So I guess that means upgrading a particular PC from Windows 7 to Windows 10 is primarily for people who A. are developing applications for Microsoft phones or consoles or B. playing video games developed by studios closely associated with Microsoft. The rest can stay on Windows 7 if your present PC shipped with Windows 7.

mikejmoffitt wrote:
On my Skylake laptop, Windows 7 was an OEM preinstall option. I do not see what stops one from using it.

This configuration is unsupported by Microsoft, though it may be supported by your laptop's manufacturer for as long as its warranty lasts.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:12 pm 
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tepples wrote:
This configuration is unsupported by Microsoft, though it may be supported by your laptop's manufacturer for as long as its warranty lasts.
obligatory wikipedia link

Arguments about "unsupported" are really missing the point. It works, it works and wastes power, or it doesn't work.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:13 pm 
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The Windows 10 FAQ wrote:
Q. My friend bought a Windows Phone. Does that mean I have to upgrade to Windows 10?
A. Yes.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:38 pm 
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Sarcasm acknowledged.

The other option is choosing not to port an app to Windows Phone at all just so that your primary PC can stay on Windows 7. This option is not acceptable to all developers.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:55 pm 
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tepples wrote:
This option is not acceptable to all developers.

No option is acceptable to all developers.

tepples wrote:
Sarcasm acknowledged.

The sarcasm is because you're belligerently pointing out extremely obvious cases that aren't relevant at all. If you are a developer with specific target goals you have very specific and obvious needs. I said as much in my first response, but if you want to keep reiterating this same useless observation, the quality of my responses is going to decline.

I'd actually enjoy a discussion of the real merits of Windows 10, but you seem to want to pursue some extremely hypothetical or extremely trivial tangentia instead, and I really don't know what to respond with besides :roll: .

Tell me about real experiences you've had with Windows 10. Tell me things about it that you care about. Don't parrot Microsoft's planned-obsolescence marketing at me. It's useless. If there's some game you're looking forward to, tell me about why. Don't give me some hypothetical situation about developing for a friend's phone. If you're developing for a friend's phone, tell me why they like their phone, and why you want to run software on it. Explain what makes these things important to you. If you're not doing these things, I don't understand why you'd make up obscure situations like this. (...and if you're just arguing disingenuously for the sake of argument, please don't.)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:54 pm 
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I have failed.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:53 pm 
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mikejmoffitt wrote:
I switch to Windows 10 because my Windows 7 installs (my existing one, and also a few fresh ones on other machines) inexplicably had broken Windows update processes.


I had the same issue when I downgraded recently back to windows 7. I found the cause. It's not that your windows 7 is broken but windows update has a hard time to figure out all the dependencies related to your computer. On a fresh install even with sp1 + recently released 2016 update package in may, it can take windows update hours to figure out all dependencies. So basically windows 7 update process is quite a pain from a fresh install.

After waiting hours my pc started to find the right update and started the process. Once updated, this problem doesn't occur again.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:49 pm 
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I remember having Windows Update problems on an older laptop running Windows 7... running some sort of "Windows Update Agent" program eventually fixed the issues, and I could install updates again. No idea if that'll work in every case, but it's worth a shot.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:20 pm 
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On the subject of helpful Windows utilities, there are a lot of good ones at: http://www.nirsoft.net/

Every now and then I have some specific need, and it turns out there's a NirSoft utility that does exactly that thing.

In particular I've been using the NirSoft multi monitor tool, which gives me a hotkey to make a window switch screens, and some other handy features. Comes in very handy on my desktop that's hooked up to a TV that is often used for other things.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:20 pm 
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tepples wrote:
rainwarrior wrote:
There's a "shutdown" command that can be run with a timer option.

Doesn't that need to be run as administrator, in case other users are logged in but disconnected through Fast User Switching? One thing that irks me about Windows is that I haven't found an easy way to run a single command elevated from a Command Prompt that isn't elevated.

Have you tried runas?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:26 pm 
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I run shutdown from a batch file frequently. I don't have to use "run as administrator" to get it to work.

My user account is the administrator account, and my "user account control" settings are at the default, and other users aren't logged in while I use it. (Using Windows 7 Ultimate, 64-bit, SP1) I dunno which (if any) of these conditions are a factor.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:12 pm 
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Nice, I will have to look into using start.exe more often, even that simple "start ." will be quite handy. And clip.exe definitely looks useful, no more needing to create temporary text files if I want to just get a log from stdout.

Actually I did hear about one feature in Windows 10 that sounds good, I heard that they've rewritten the notoriously buggy USBSER.SYS, I've heard of too many cases where it crashes and BSODs. Even in Win 7, it has BSOD'd on me (interestingly though, so far only when shutting the computer down while it's connected.. WTF? This is even if I didn't even run a PC program that opened the port during the session, it's only left plugged in). Though that is good news, it is tempered by knowing (AFAICT by Microsoft's wording) that they will be leaving it broken in Win 8, 7, XP.. I'm creating a USB device and the last thing I want to be telling users "oh BTW, you might need change your operating system if it BSODs for no apparent reason. You might as well buy a new PC. Good luck!". So while that's nice for the future, it's effectively useless if you want to make something that's compatible with what people are actually using today. And yeah, at least a couple people using my stuff I know for certain are still running XP.

Continuing my rant though, I bought my copy of Win 7 retail (probably 2nd most expensive software I've bought, after the Proteus CAD software), my PC is kind of old but perfectly suitable for what I do with it. But I feel kind of ripped off by this free upgrade, because it's not exactly clear if I move to 10 on this PC, then build my next one, will I have to go back to 7 again? Call MS support and ask nicely? Makes me not want to bother with it. Sounds like the free upgrade version is supposed to be locked to your current PC. It wouldn't bother me if it didn't feel like they're doing this free upgrade mostly so they could drop support of 7 that much sooner (could be an overly cynical view, I dunno).

tokumaru wrote:
Memblers wrote:
Looking at my Win7 install date, it looks I ditched XP only in 2003

Wasn't Windows 7 released in 2009?


I had put in a 1.21 Gigawatt power supply and overclocked my DVD-ROM to spin at 88X, installed it with that. No wonder I can suddenly remember having driver problems with my 3DFX Voodoo 3 vidcard back then. :wink: But no, actually I meant to type 2013, whoops, heheh.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:59 am 
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Or maybe I'm the only one who still uses the command prompt all the time?

A suprising amount of stuff is doable in a command prompt, including web browsing and creating editing programs. Actually, depending on what you do you could even do your daily work without any graphical interface. The biggest killer is the lack of a PDF viewer in command prompt.

Memblers wrote:
On a folder, if you hold shift and right click, it gives you an "open in command prompt" option.
[...]
In the command prompt, typing the name of a file alone will open it with it's associated program.

Both of those are absolutely standard usage of the computer, and I don't see how this can be called a "trick" to any possible extent of the imagination.

When it comes to command prompt, I use linux's one much, much more often than Window's one, so whenever I have to use Window's one for something that is not extremely basic (like just run a program) I feel lost. I tend to use Cygwin when I have to use command prompt on Windows for that reason.


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