It is currently Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:21 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:16 am
Posts: 558
I agree with the others, NES homebrew is more alive than ever. SNES never was alive IMHO, because there is no compiler for that system, but that's in depth in other topics.

I suppose you think that way because the current crop is mostly commercial, like on Genesis. There's no progress posting and talks about internals, rather it's just announcements and sales. At least one member here really dislikes the commercialization.

Me, I'm out of commission due to not having slept properly in nine weeks, thanks to a druggie neighbor. Not that I post that much anyway, with my things being either experimentation or commercial, or like the compo ones, things I want to keep secret until a hundred lightning bolts strike and life explodes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Posts: 10067
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
calima wrote:
SNES never was alive IMHO, because there is no compiler for that system

I agree that SNES development has always been slow, but blaming it on the lack of a compiler is a bit of a stretch IMO. It's not like NES development improved immensely when C became an option... Most NES games are still programmed in assembly, AFAIK.

Quote:
There's no progress posting and talks about internals, rather it's just announcements and sales.

This is part of the problem for me. I find the development and the discussions about how to implement things much more interesting than the final games, most of the time. I have nothing against the commercialization, but it's annoying when this is all there is. No discussions, no demo ROMs, nothing to give back to the development community.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:23 pm
Posts: 1338
> Now the worries is all about a good looking NES emulator GUI

I blame the rise of the frontends and forks. Just for my emulator alone, there's:

BSNES (Richard Bannister)
bsnes (Mednafen)
bsnes (OpenEmu)
bsnes-mercury (Retroarch)
bsnes-plus (Revenant)
bsnes-classic (AWJ)
bsnes-sx2 (LuigiBlood)
bsnes-qq (quequotion)
Bizhawk (TAS)
lsnes (ilari)
nSide (hex_usr)
Piko's fork of bsnes/Mednafen (Steam)
Snesbox (C# port)
ZMZ (Alcaro)

Snes9X has it just as bad.

Although they all do good things and offer choices not in the mainline emulators, these suck the life out of the parent projects.

Instead of working off the same core codebase and improving emulation, it's about ridiculously petty fights over things that don't matter like copier headers and how to sort file types.

> I honestly haven't seen any snesdev stuff in over 15 years

The emudev stuff was on the ZSNES board from 2004-2006, then on my subforum there from 2007-2008, then on my board from 2009-2014. There hasn't been a lot of SNES work since then.

Homebrew's always been exceptionally limited on the SNES. d4s is probably the front runner there.

MSU1 also brought a surprising amount of fun new stuff to the table. Although a lot of people don't care for it; that did allow for fun new things like Super Road Blaster, and restoration of the BS Zelda broadcast games.

> On the NES front, this is pretty disgusting.

And that list is still only about 10% of the NES emulators that actually exist :)

> the SNES stuff seems to be focusing on the unreleased/prototype CD system (though I really don't see the point in bothering with it but that's just one man's opinion)

I gave up on it and scrapped it from higan. It was fun to research and learn about, but at the end of the day it's nothing more than a 1X CD-ROM drive with a criminally small amount of RAM on a boot cart. Zero games for it, and even the one homebrew shows no indications whatsoever that it'd even run on the real thing.

I sincerely doubt that would have ever been released as-is, even if Nintendo and Sony didn't have their falling out.

> byuu has already stated that there are always behavioural quirks in the console that surprise him when he discovers them

True, however, we are at a point where basically 100% of the library is playable without any known bugs. Sans the games that require peripherals we can't really emulate with a keyboard and mouse.

I still want to learn and improve things, but there's no denying that things have slowed down immensely when there's nothing visible left to gain from further enhancements.

At this point, I'm just sitting around waiting for jwdonal's new test ROMs.

> it shouldn't be about quantity, it should be about quality.

I couldn't agree more.

I love the idea that all these people are trying to write emulators. It's totally cool to learn about this and have a fun little learning project. The same is true for forks and frontends.

The problem is, everyone is doing it! Nobody's coming in to help work on the mainline projects anymore. So instead of advancing, we're wasting large amounts of time explaining already-known behaviors to new developers. We're fracturing the userbases so tiny that some of these forks have users in the single-digits, which makes testing and finding regressions that much harder.

It takes years to learn all that's already known, and begin to advance things. Yet people come in, work on something new for one or two, quit, and all that time and effort is completely lost. We not only don't make progress, we lose progress due to the time spent helping those guys along.

Look at how amazing Dolphin is doing: because everyone's working on one project. Now imagine if instead we had 900 GC/Wii emulator projects each by one person, like we do for retro gaming systems. Do you think they'd be anywhere near as far as they are now in that case?

Frankly, my feeling is ... if you're writing hardware tests and finding new behaviors that no emulator supports ... you are doing the lord's work. If you are just trying to pass existing test ROMs to get a high score on tasvideos, or are working on a frontend/fork just because you don't like the way an emulator stores files, you're actively detrimental to the emulation scene.

And to be clear -- yes, I'm part of the problem here too. I'm also too stubborn about file formats, and I'm also working on a bunch of non-SNES emulators that, while I hope they go far, in all honesty I'm not sure I have the energy levels left to make them exceptional. This is as much a criticism of myself as it is of others.

> The adage "you're only as old as you feel" is true, but I feel 80 (10 years ago I felt 60, 20 years ago I felt 40).

Yeah, we are candles burning brightly from both ends. It's no surprise we are burning out so quickly.

These days I am just barely holding on by a thread.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:30 am 
Offline
Formerly Fx3
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:59 pm
Posts: 3064
Location: Brazil
*sniffs a topic split from here*

tokumaru wrote:
That's probably because people don't have those answers. Answers come from research, so you can't expect answers to specific issues if the research hasn't been done yet. One way to change that would be to invest your time into researching such things yourself, if you have the equipment. For a lot of things, just an NES and a Flash cart is enough. For other things, you might need more expensive hardware.

Aren't we a group of NES hardware/emulation discussion??? Take your idea and the forum becomes meaningless. You see... thanks to the others with some knowledgement of computer science/engineering/electronics, we got all this wonderfull NES stuff. I could be one of them, but hardly as good as they are. I don't own the required knowledgement for such deep stuff!

Quote:
Maybe you should consider making such findings, instead of expecting them to pour in.

To be honest, I answer most of my own questions after some work, which is a good thing. Well, it doesn't matter.

Quote:
Sadly, but unsurprisingly, most people just want emulators to play games. They don't care about cycles, open buses or race conditions.

Right and wrong. You're right because we're offering a free product for playing NES games (f*ck the copyright legal stuff), but wrong because just take a look in the NESdev wiki - look the huge number of announced NES emulators "in development".

Quote:
I guess that when things slow down we have two options: we can let it die or we can work harder to produce more content and do more research in hopes of injecting more life into this hobby of ours. Maybe it's time to choose.

Let me ask one thing. You were developing a Sonic game for NES. Is your project dead, on hold or... a failed one? 8-)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:16 am
Posts: 558
tokumaru wrote:
I agree that SNES development has always been slow, but blaming it on the lack of a compiler is a bit of a stretch IMO. It's not like NES development improved immensely when C became an option... Most NES games are still programmed in assembly, AFAIK.

Most of the new ones coming out are in C, at least for non-performance-critical parts.

edit: I also know of recent SNES ports that did not materialize due to the significant cost of making them in asm.

Quote:
This is part of the problem for me. I find the development and the discussions about how to implement things much more interesting than the final games, most of the time. I have nothing against the commercialization, but it's annoying when this is all there is. No discussions, no demo ROMs, nothing to give back to the development community.

Like the postmortems for more recent games, going over how things were implemented, etc? I don't think I've seen any of those for NES homebrews.

byuu wrote:
Yeah, we are candles burning brightly from both ends. It's no surprise we are burning out so quickly.

Listen to your elders folks. I'm young(ish), and I've burned out once or twice too. (not sure who I'm talking to here. Maybe Espozo?)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Posts: 10067
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
Zepper wrote:
Let me ask one thing. You were developing a Sonic game for NES. Is your project dead, on hold or... a failed one? 8-)

I would love to belong in the second group of people, but I'm hardly an example of success when it comes to game development. I have several half-done engines that ended up going nowhere. I definitely intend to release my game some day, I'm not giving up on it, but I'm no longer making promises. Fact is that real life events have been preventing me from working on my game for 5 or so months now.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:52 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:43 pm
Posts: 1308
I do hope that the NESDev coding competition ending in January will bring some projects out of the woodwork or get new ones going. I've been trying to push forwards to make progress with mine again. The game which Tepples was paid to develop got released on cartridge, and I got to see it featured at the Syracuse Retro Game Con a month ago and finally play it a little. That passes my litmus test for significance - somebody who didn't know me tried to sell it to me. I also met somebody who is working on a documentary about people who develop games for these systems and saw rainwarrior's mug on their poster. The fact that the community has crept out into such a spotlight (however small) is significant. Honestly, it seems like a pretty good time for retro game development right now.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 6:12 pm
Posts: 2295
By New Years I promise that I'll be less boring. I have to reorganize my game so I can swap tilesets between levels. Since I plan on 8 levels, I'll designate 32kb of graphical data for each level.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:46 pm
Posts: 930
tokumaru wrote:
Sadly, but unsurprisingly, most people just want emulators to play games. They don't care about cycles, open buses or race conditions.
Most people yes, but people like me do care about cycles and open bus and obscure features of mappers and so on (and I also think that it is related anyways; accuracy can also ensure compatibility with whatever new game might come up, or some obscure old game that the emulator author does not necessarily know about). To me, to be able to play these game with it is like a useful (and intentional) side-effect.

And, about GUI, some people (including myself) like command-line program, which can then include as command-line arguments, the cartridge filename and its arguments (if any; most mappers don't need arguments), as well as general switches such as to indicate save files or NTSC/PAL or whatever. It is also my opinion that it should load disk images from separate files for each disk side, so that you may possibly even using a disk with multiple programs, and may easily to copy disks using your operating system commands, and so on. (And, a mapper number should be needed for Game Genie.)

_________________
.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:32 pm
Posts: 6
byuu wrote:
> Now the worries is all about a good looking NES emulator GUI
It takes years to learn all that's already known, and begin to advance things. Yet people come in, work on something new for one or two, quit, and all that time and effort is completely lost. We not only don't make progress, we lose progress due to the time spent helping those guys along.

Look at how amazing Dolphin is doing: because everyone's working on one project. Now imagine if instead we had 900 GC/Wii emulator projects each by one person, like we do for retro gaming systems. Do you think they'd be anywhere near as far as they are now in that case?

Frankly, my feeling is ... if you're writing hardware tests and finding new behaviors that no emulator supports ... you are doing the lord's work. If you are just trying to pass existing test ROMs to get a high score on tasvideos, or are working on a frontend/fork just because you don't like the way an emulator stores files, you're actively detrimental to the emulation scene.

Honestly, this was what I was personally hoping to not contribute to with my project. I was hoping not to bother anyone here, and I would have succeeded were it not for my silly reading comprehension failure. This is why I was a bit...embarassed? to find my project listed on the wiki, because it seems clear that nobody wants to hear that some newcomer is working on yet another emulator. There is clearly enough documentation to accomplish what I want, and with a bit of persistence I don't need to ask for anyone's help. You won't hear a thing from me or my emulator again if it's only going to drag the community down.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:38 pm
Posts: 1517
Location: Fukuoka, Japan
I'm not bored about nesdev: it's a very small niche community so you shouldn't expect a lot of new finding compared to let's say 10~15 years ago.

If you do feel that way then maybe it is more a sign that you need a break. Just stop reading the forum for a bit and work on your project(s) then. Once you come back there may be new projects/ideas that will be out and you will feel refreshed too. Sometimes a break is all you need.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:57 pm
Posts: 1248
@Sarospa

There's no need to be self-conscious about it, because writing an emulator is sometimes meant as a programming exercise and as a way to get familiar with the 6502 and just old hardware in general. The truth is, there's an expectation that documentation and source code is enough to figure everything out, but trying to figure something out via source code is tedious (personal experience), and documentation can be just as ambiguous since it's often written by experienced users for other experienced users (and that's only if it exists at all!). Right now, I'm pretty sure there's a couple of things known by the community and in this forum but not actually written down anywhere.

Regardless of what anyone says, the best resource is often to just ask a community. Even if we just point you to a document or to a wiki page, that's at least a starting point, and from there, you'll be able to point out what exactly is confusing you, and that sometimes leads to new information that nobody knew, even if it's just a clarification.

tl;dr: Keep on truckin', you're not bothering anyone.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:17 am
Posts: 591
psycopathicteen wrote:
Lately, I just don't find anything interesting happening here. I haven't seen any progress in anybody's projects. Is this website dying? Is NES homebrew dying? Is SNES homebrew dying, yet again? Is there another website that people are joining?


I don't post here often, but I read this site daily. NES isn't my main dev or anything, but since it's similar to 8bit and 16bit systems around that time, things are fairly similar (trying to solve problems, etc). Plus, I work on nes2pce stuffs - which connects me to nesdev in some fashion. I just ordered an N8, so I think I'll actually start some real dev on the nes as a new years resolution.

But yeah, I don't find this site boring.

One the other side of console dev stuffs, PC-Engine community picked up some activity this year. Elmer, who was a professional developer for many platforms in the 8/16bit era up to the PS3 era, is now dedicated his time to doing PC-Engine projects. Spritesmind (Genesis dev) seems to really have dropped off though. I have no idea about SMS dev.

_________________
__________________________
http://pcedev.wordpress.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:28 am 
Offline
Formerly Fx3
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:59 pm
Posts: 3064
Location: Brazil
Sometimes it is boring, but it is life for me. Any news that pops up is a reason for enjoyment programming my emulator.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:43 pm
Posts: 10067
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
I think I'm just bored of life in general, to tell the truth.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: thefox and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group