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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:44 pm 
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@rainwarrior:

O.k., fine. If you have trust in the fact that he means the definition from the dictionary and didn't just use the word because he wanted to say "person that I don't have a real job for, but who just works with me on the program as an independent contributor", then you might be right.

But on the other hand, there are also a good bunch of 12 year old kiddies on the Atari forum who invent a cool "company name" for themselves and their "upcoming gaming projects", despite not actually owning a corporation. So, I wouldn't put too much meaning into buzzwords like this, unless he actually uses the words "paid", "payment" or "money".

koitsu wrote:
You have a track record of doing this. Repeatedly.

Yes, of course. I do this repeatedly whenever people cannot just ignore me. But where have you ever seen a situation where people didn't criticise me and I still kept arguing?

Best example: I got into an argument about some graphics style. Eventually the topic ended. Then, three or four weeks later, someone bumped the thread by writing a post that was directed towards me only, where he quoted one of my posts and argued against them. Of course, since the thread had a new reply and it was directed to me, I answered him. And afterwards, the general situation was: "You just cannot stop, can you?" Despite me not writing anything else in the thread and only reacting when someone talked to me personally.

koitsu wrote:
A defense of "hey, just ignore me!" is really not a defense at all; it's a rebuttal I'd expect from a snotty-nosed 10 year old who is in dire need of a good ass-whooping.

I'm not saying "Ignore me." I'm saying: "If you don't want me to argue against you, you have to ignore me. Otherwise, I will answer your objections."

You know what is a snotty-nosed 10 year old behavior? This:

Me: "I think X is stupid."
Someone else: "X is not stupid. Don't be so rude."
Me: "Of course it's stupid, because of Y."
Someone else: "Hey, stop arguing with me."

You can't have both.
Either you tell me your opinion, then expect me to tell you my opinion.
Or you don't want to argue with me. Then don't argue with me.

And yes, I ridiculed the thread creator's post. Because it is ridiculous. Especially when people point out that he has a portfolio, he should know that this is not a way to introduce a project.
Humility is not an excuse since my reply was not directed towards him being arrogant, but towards him being lazy. You can be the most humble person in the world. That doesn't make your question: "Can you pleeeeease do my game?" any less stupid.
Sure, he was aware that the forum might be an inappropriate place for this. But that's not what I ridiculed. I ridiculed the fact that, even if the forum is the right place to ask, his request was still lazy and uninspired.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:07 pm 
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DRW wrote:
O.k., fine. If you have trust in the fact that he means the definition from the dictionary and didn't just use the word because he wanted to say "person that I don't have a real job for, but who just works with me on the program as an independent contributor", then you might be right.

But on the other hand, there are also a good bunch of 12 year old kiddies on the Atari forum who invent a cool "company name" for themselves and their "upcoming gaming projects", despite not actually owning a corporation. So, I wouldn't put too much meaning into buzzwords like this, unless he actually uses the words "paid", "payment" or "money".

So you've deliberately misread the words of a stranger solely for the purpose of putting him down.

Yes, clearly the problem is everyone else, not you.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:22 pm 
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rainwarrior wrote:
So you've deliberately misread the words of a stranger solely for the purpose of putting him down.

I didn't put any meaning into the thread title at all until you referred to it when trying to prove that he mentioned payment. And all I said was that "freelancer" doesn't necessarily have to mean "paid work". Just like "programming job" doesn't mean that someone is actually the boss of a company and you become an employee, it's possible that "freelancer" just means that some external person shall work on this.
I myself didn't put any meaning into it.

rainwarrior wrote:
Yes, clearly the problem is everyone else, not you.

I cannot remember that the word "freelancer" or the project's payment was ever part of all the arguments in this thread and of the question if I have been rude and whose problem that is etc., so why do you put these two different things together?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:41 pm 
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Quote:
there are also a good bunch of 12 year old kiddies
,
yes, but fact: my previous post. Not a 12 year old kid with an idea, but a game designer and freelance gfx/ux designer. It took me, i think, 15 seconds to look it up. With that behind, what's left is that it's quite unecessary to display agression towards a relative newcomer on the forums just because the post was lacking sufficient info. I don't think anyone here's arguing who's right or wrong, but rather what kind of responsibility for keeping the community healthy, developing and welcoming that's expected.

I think rainwarrior's point is valid. A general resentment towards the idea of people coming to ask for freebie favours to no end doesn't justify being short and mean to a newcomer whose intentions you don't know and whose background you didn't care to check. Now that's pretty hard to defend in my book. Which is pretty much, i think, why everyone's reacting. Let's just do better next time.

Self-righteous paladin lvl 99 signing off. :P

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:44 pm 
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DRW wrote:
rainwarrior wrote:
So you've deliberately misread the words of a stranger solely for the purpose of putting him down.

I didn't put any meaning into the thread title at all until you referred to it when trying to prove that he mentioned payment. And all I said was that "freelancer" doesn't necessarily have to mean "paid work". Just like "programming job" doesn't mean that someone is actually the boss of a company and you become an employee, it's possible that "freelancer" just means that some external person shall work on this.
I myself didn't put any meaning into it.

So then, respectfully, can I ask why you didn't ask him what he meant by freelancer? Would you really have responded differently if you knew definitely up front that by freelancer he meant for-pay rather than volunteer/for free?

Not that it holds merit (everyone interprets things differently), but I read it the same way as rainwarrior. Where I live (Silicon Valley), "freelancer" refers to someone who usually does jobs for a flat sum ("contractor" is a similar term, though here that usually means you're paid by the hour). This is literally what went through my brain when I read the initial request:

"Freelance programming gig, eh? Well he's asking the right place; tepples and several others do such, so no harm done, even if no one takes it. Hrm... hrm. I could use the money... no, stop that. Stay true to what you promised yourself long ago. Video game development is a time vampire of the worst kind. Let someone else more passionate and interested reply and take him up on it. But don't forget about whatever that project is; all these new homebrew titles being made is pretty damn cool."

Hence, I said nothing. And if by "freelancer" he meant/means "work for free", then I *also* wouldn't respond (for the same reasons). But that's me.


Last edited by koitsu on Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:44 pm 
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WheelInventor wrote:
A general resentment towards the idea of people coming to ask for freebie favours to no end doesn't justify being short and mean to a newcomer whose intentions you don't know and whose background you didn't care to check. Now that's pretty hard to defend in my book. Which is pretty much, i think, why everyone's reacting. Let's just do better next time.

This. This this this. Times a thousand.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:01 pm 
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I love a good argument. This isn't one. It's more like...

Famous "Argument Clinic Sketch", beginning...

Man: Well, Well, I was told outside that...
Angry man: DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS!
Man: What?
A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS TOFFEE-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!
M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!
A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!
M: Oh! Oh I see!
A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:12 pm 
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DRW wrote:
I cannot remember that the word "freelancer" or the project's payment was ever part of all the arguments in this thread and of the question if I have been rude and whose problem that is etc., so why do you put these two different things together?

It was the most important word in his post. He wants to pay someone to help him finish an NES project. (Also, just to clarify, this is not some hypothetical meaning. I've talked to him firsthand, and he literally meant what he said.)

I can't possibly understand that interpreting this word wasn't part of your reply.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:27 pm 
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Was my rephrase worded well?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:36 pm 
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It's fine, though the EA job link seems strange to me.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:52 am 
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Ignoring you doesn't really work.

Like, sure, sometimes, maybe, it might. But as you've said we're not exactly able to "test this." Or maybe the way to think about it is, there was already a test, and you failed by double posting.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:55 am 
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DRW wrote:
And yes, I ridiculed the thread creator's post. Because it is ridiculous. Especially when people point out that he has a portfolio, he should know that this is not a way to introduce a project.
Humility is not an excuse since my reply was not directed towards him being arrogant, but towards him being lazy. You can be the most humble person in the world. That doesn't make your question: "Can you pleeeeease do my game?" any less stupid.

His post was not ridiculous, and was friendly and humble. I sent him a private message, and got a clear, concise response about the nature of the work. I'm now interested in working on the project as it seems like an approachable scope for me and is interesting. It wasn't very hard to do this simple communication.

DRW wrote:
Of course, since the thread had a new reply and it was directed to me, I answered him. And afterwards, the general situation was: "You just cannot stop, can you?" Despite me not writing anything else in the thread and only reacting when someone talked to me personally.

I really can't tell if this is a serious post any more or not. If it's untrue that you cannot stop, then just let it go and don't engage. If people criticize you when you do the same pattern over and over, don't you see that maybe the problematic behavior pattern is yours.

Please take a good look at your posting history, and ask yourself if you'd ever speak the way you do to a person in real life who you don't know very well. If you don't have anything to go on, then assume that these people you don't know are equals who are worth listening to, not inferiors who you should snap at. Give people the benefit of the doubt. It's so easy to do here; why not take such an easy choice?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:04 am 
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koitsu wrote:
So then, respectfully, can I ask why you didn't ask him what he meant by freelancer?

Because I didn't consciously register the word in a way that I asked myself: What does he mean by it? I read the word in the same way as if someone says "programming job" which also can mean anything. So, it never came to my attention that the word in itself might already carry the definite meaning of "paid".

koitsu wrote:
Would you really have responded differently if you knew definitely up front that by freelancer he meant for-pay rather than volunteer/for free?

Yes. If the thread title was "Paid programming gig", I would have seen that he's a bit more serious than all those "Can you please do my game" guys. "Freelance" can also be a buzzword, so I didn't assume one or the other meaning.

Kasumi wrote:

Oh, come on. That's a totally different thing. I was talking about ignoring my insults. The one in your link was just me asking for gameplay footage.
Of course, if I have a legitimate question and people ignore me, then it's possible that I ask again. But this has nothing to do with the topic at hand where it's me expressing my opinion in a degrading manner and I say: "If you don't answer, I won't either."
This doesn't refer to any mundane "I have a simple question, but never got a reply in a while, so I asked whether there's already anything new" situation.

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Trailer: https://youtu.be/IYXpP59qSxA
Gameplay: https://youtu.be/Eee0yurkIW4
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:33 am 
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Sometimes it's not posting in sarcasm mode as much as using only humor in a post. Case in point: In a recent post by someone who wanted to develop a game for a 16-bit console but was unwilling to make a project entirely in assembly language, I used subtle humor to recommend a different, more C-friendly platform. When another regular user explained privately that a novice probably wouldn't be able to understand it, I left the humor up but edited in a sincerity-mode restatement of the point I was trying to get across subtly.

mikejmoffitt wrote:
I sent him a private message, and got a clear, concise response about the nature of the work. I'm now interested in working on the project

I figured as much. That's why my rephrase was centered around "increas[ing] the signal-to-noise ratio of private replies that you receive".


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