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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:24 pm 
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Just really bizarre, especially considering it lists the temperature of the GPU core but nothing else in the CPU:

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It's unfortunate, because every other CPU monitoring tool I've seen doesn't support this processor.

If you're wondering about why I care about the temperature, It's because of the lack of holes anywhere other than the one side:

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I haven't had anything run this computer at 100% yet (I need to take the Wii out of my closet and rip some games. I'm not confident this computer will run GameCube games well, but I could run Sony Vegas's Preview window at max settings with no problem, something my lame 1.8GHz dual core CPU couldn't do) so I don't know how hot it will get. It will probably be fine, but if not (I could even overclock it if so, especially if it's just barely out of reach for GameCube emulation) I wonder if I can improve airflow if I cut out plastic in rows to make vents. My grandfather has good equipment for cutting plastic; I just wonder where the optimal spot for these vents would be. It seems like you could get good airflow if you were to reverse the fan and make a vent directly beneath it.

This is how the laptop looks with the back removed: (the DVD drive is removed. It takes up the top left corner, but there's still a lot of empty space overall, just not continuous.)

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Yeah, I was an idiot with my older post. I didn't know the thing with the copper rod above it was the CPU. (I'm new to this. :lol: ) Oddly enough, there's an empty space above it to the left a little that has "GPU" marked, although there was no option for a non integrated GPU. The CPU is soldered to the motherboard, unfortunately, but at least I can add more RAM if I need to (and I already changed the hard drive.)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:49 pm 
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Quote:
Just really bizarre, especially considering it lists the temperature of the GPU core but nothing else in the CPU:

Explain to me why this is "bizarre". I want to know how your brain concluded that (the logical process please). Warning: I write hardware monitoring software.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:15 pm 
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That AMD chip is an APU; your GPU temp *is* your CPU temp. What more do you want to know???

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:43 am 
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So, I'm under the impression this was a dumb question? :lol: I thought that a different temperature reading was given for each part of the CPU, but based on the feedback I'm getting, I guess not... :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:23 am 
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Espozo wrote:
So, I'm under the impression this was a dumb question? :lol: I thought that a different temperature reading was given for each part of the CPU, but based on the feedback I'm getting, I guess not... :lol:

Still waiting for the answer to my question.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:42 am 
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I guess Espozo assumed that an AMD APU or an Intel CPU with HD/Iris Graphics would have the CPU and GPU on separate sides of the die, with separate temperature sensors on each side. And because the "Temperatures" section was listed below the GPU section, the instinct was to associate it with the GPU.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:20 am 
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I missed tomaitheous's post -- he got the core of it right.

There is more to this than is being explained, but as it has always been, it all depends on what the mainboard manufacturer chooses to implement; AMD's APU is just one piece. Yes, I am choosing to be extremely terse given the terseness of everything so far.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:29 am 
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I felt what tepples described. I know it's all on the same chip, but I was led to believe there would be two different temperature readings because the temperature reading was listed under the GPU section and listed as "GPU core" instead of specifying it as the whole chip. I didn't think it poposterous for different parts of the chip to have different temperatures.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:17 pm 
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AMD and Intel do things very differently. But really it doesn't matter, because it all boils down to choices the manufacturers make when it comes to designing the product. For example, Intel CPUs (both mobile and desktop) include DTSs, but where they choose to use a DTS (and what it associates with) is their choice; model X may have a DTS per CPU core as well as 2 in the on-die GPU, but another model may have only 1 for the GPU. And that's all on-die -- none of that is related to hardware monitoring ICs (sometimes part of a Super I/O chip) which provides data from external sources (particularly thermistors placed on the motherboard near/around components of interest). None of *that* discusses per-vendor implementation differences, such as when they choose to stick a resistor between the thermistor and the chip, changing the formulas you have to use (in software) to calculate accurate values (so what the chip manufacturer says to use for a formula is no longer accurate, and rarely if ever do the actual motherboard manufacturers public disclose such resistors/changes -- it often varies per motherboard too). And back on the DTS side, TjMax and all that horseshit makes things crazy. Then there's PECI, and ACPI thermal zones, and.....

Therefore: "sensor" can refer to one of several different things, with the source data coming from one of several different places. It's one reason why these generic Windows hardware monitoring applications are ridiculously stupid -- they really don't teach this to end-users for reasons I just do not understand. I cannot tell you how many times (bordering on a hundred?) I've heard people say "well XYZ app says my CPU is at 30C, but then ABC app says it's at 47C? Which is right?", when really XYZ is looking at DTS and averaging them, while ABC is looking at a HW monitoring IC, but both apps say "CPU Temperature". BIOSes (both classic and UEFI) are common offenders of this too, because they're choosing to "dumb down the details" for the end-user. This is all mainly (IMO) a result of what I call the "Gamer Effect", where you have kids with money who think they understand technology because they can build a PC, but in reality have zero familiarity with what's going on under the hood. You give them tools that "show them a bunch of numbers" and somehow that makes them... I don't know... powerful? Gurus? I don't know the right word.

I won't be replying past this point.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:38 pm 
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Not to mention that in the wrong hands, "a bunch of numbers" can prove very dangerous. Windows provides Event Viewer, and systemd on Linux systems provides the analogous journalctl, which show both important and not-so-important issues. But certain technical support firms in India will do their damnedest to confuse callers into thinking that everything in the event log indicates a problem that should be dealt with for a "one-time fee."


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:36 pm 
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Agreed. So focusing on the matter at hand, what is the appropriate choice of action? It's pretty simple: you follow the advice on their support page. Picking nesdev as a place to ask this is very weird (IMO); just because we're technically competent doesn't mean we're the proper source for support. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:29 pm 
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koitsu wrote:
It's pretty simple: you follow the advice on their support page.

It's all right; I've come under the impression that this measures the whole CPU. And yeah, sorry this wasn't a good place to ask, but I did learn what I wanted to, so I'm happy. I basically learned I'm not going to need to concern myself with temperature unless I overclock the CPU (it never really got all that hot according to the vague reading, even after what I describe below), and although I've heard this isn't a good idea for a laptop, I can think of several ways to improve airflow to get the CPU cooler. I found the RAM in the computer only runs at 1GHz, which is crazy unbalanced with the rest of the system, (The speed was not listed when I got the computer) but I can at least replace that. I should probably find a good computer forum to discuss this stuff... Anyone have any suggestions? I don't want to join forums only to find out that no one is helpful and never post there. (I did this a couple of times, asking MAME forums about the Irem M92 and the posts were either ignored or people outright admitted they knew nothing. I found that the forums had little to do with the development of MAME, but I found one that was for this, but they had this dumb admission thing, and I never got an acceptance email.)

Good news and bad news: Super Monkey Ball runs at a rock-solid 60fps, but F-Zero GX runs anywhere from 30 to 60 (Staying at 40 the vast majority of the time, but changing based on what position I was in and where on the track I was). I wonder if faster ram can improve this...


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:08 pm 
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Espozo, it's a laptop. Don't fuck with it. Don't overclock anything, don't "tweak anything". Laptops are not desktop systems, they really aren't intended for intensive things like gaming (those gaming laptops are all failures waiting to happen, don't buy into it). The fact you're able to run some emulators decently is pretty impressive, but they aren't anything close to what, say, an i7-6600K + GTX 970 will get you. Sorry, that's just the truth.

As for the memory: as I said above, don't fuck with it. The memory in the A12-9700P is DDR4-1866, which means the memory clock is at 233MHz, the I/O bus clock is at 933MHz, and the transfer rate maxes out at about 15000MBytes/sec (I'm rounding up). Top-of-the-line DDR4 runs at 300MHz / 1200MHz / 19200MB/s. It's really not that big of a difference. That's the most the chipset can handle, as far as I can tell (AMD's site right now is dogshit slow and digging up technical documentation would take probably an hour).

The main limiting factor in emulators, I would say 98% of the time, is not memory speed, it's CPU and/or GPU speed (especially the latter, depending on what kind of shaders are used -- ask the emulator authors). Emulators tend to tax the hell out of both (particularly CPU); the more complicated the system being emulated (speaking generally), the worse it gets.

So, once more: don't fuck with it. Leave the laptop alone. It's not a desktop. Don't overclock it (or anything, as a matter of fact! Horrible thing to do).

As for temperature: YOU ABSOLUTELY SHOULD CARE ABOUT LAPTOP TEMPERATURE. Temperature for a completely enclosed device with basically no room for good airflow that's driving both a CPU and GPU (hence APU) is serious business. Use Open Hardware Monitor and just look at the GPU temperature. If you want "more temperature data", then you need to ask the 1) motherboard manufacturer if they have additional thermal zones (hence thermistors), and if so, what HW monitoring IC they use, and 2) ask the same question (and/or present the prior information) to the guy who maintains Open Hardware Monitor so he can try to get support for any additional HW monitoring IC/Super I/O chip implemented. Laptops get filled with hair and dust and crap -- quite often stuff that you can't just blow out easily by sticking the end of a can of air against a ventilation slot -- throughout normal usage. It's even worse if you own pets, or live in a dusty or heavily pollenated area (I'm aware of how Texas has a pollen problem). Comparatively, responsible desktop PC owners haul their systems outside every 6 months and dust them out. So, yes, you SHOULD care about the temperature. "I don't care about temperature unless I was to overclock" is ostrich syndrome. :P


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:38 pm 
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koitsu wrote:
those gaming laptops are all failures waiting to happen, don't buy into it

I've actually heard the main problem with Alienware laptops is their poor reliability... This thread cracked me up, titled "Alienware horror stories": http://www.gamespot.com/forums/pc-mac-l ... -29382344/ :lol: Now I'm starting to be glad I bought this laptop, as a 3.5GHz laptop now seems too good to be true based on some problems about overheating I'm starting to hear.

koitsu wrote:
it's CPU and/or GPU speed (especially the latter
koitsu wrote:
Emulators tend to tax the hell out of both (particularly CPU)

So, is it the CPU, or the GPU? Oh yeah, I spoke too soon; as soon as I got to the levels with a reflective floor (The bonus level actually worked fine, the extra levels however, didn't), Super Monkey Ball went from straight 60fps to straight 30fps. :shock: Dolphin Emulator now seems a little less useful to me: You need a desktop to run it reasonably, but if you're going to sit there on the computer instead of take the game along with you, you might as well play the GameCube, because you need to have the games unless you want a notice from your internet provider, (although this was years upon years ago when this happened to me; it's probably safe now) and it's implied that if you have the games, you have either a GameCube or Wii to run them. Now that I'm looking at it, Dolphin on a laptop is almost unheard of. It's usually just Super Smash Bros Melee (apparently not too CPU intensive, which makes sense) running fairly bad whenever I ever see anything at all.

koitsu wrote:
If you want "more temperature data", then you need to ask the 1) motherboard manufacturer if they have additional thermal zones (hence thermistors), and if so, what HW monitoring IC they use, and 2) ask the same question (and/or present the prior information) to the guy who maintains Open Hardware Monitor so he can try to get support for any additional HW monitoring IC/Super I/O chip implemented.

I'm actually considering that, as I'm curious now. (If I ever go anywhere with this, I'll post something here.) I've never had overheating problems, but a friend I knew (who didn't make sure the laptop was getting good airflow) overheated their computer and actually ended up breaking it, or so he told me. (I would have thought that it would have forced itself to shut down before this. Maybe he's making stuff up.)

koitsu wrote:
I'm aware of how Texas has a pollen problem

All too correct... It's good that I had fun taking apart the computer though, as I'll probably do it again for some reason or another. I did only a week ago, because I wasn't satisfied how I had the SSD in there and had someone cut a piece of plastic that was the right thickness to make up for how it was skinnier than the previous hard drive. I cleaned up some of the inside of the computer with a microfiber cloth. I imagine this is okay; I just didn't have a can of compressed air.

Yeah though, thanks for knocking some sense into me. I think it should be apparent I have no real clue what I'm talking about... :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:31 pm 
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Don't ever give in to this shitpile hype.


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