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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:05 am 
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With the brand new Nintendo Switch getting released this March, I wonder... Is retrogaming style worst than modern gaming? What is retrogaming? By taking Nintendo's time line, I'd say... Super NES was the last one for home consoles. The Gameboy handhelds + Nintendo DS kept the retrogaming for a few more years... until the 3DS "upgrades" the experience. A bit of history + own opinion + a bit of demency ^_^;; Let's go.

1. The CD was the meaning of evolution from cartridges. Initially, the long loading times were considerated "normal" for the PSOne and NeoGeoCD. The Nintendo64 came out in 1996 (?) with... cartridges - a crucial point of failure in sales/development of new games, probably for being too expensive. As result, take the CD idea + "innovation" = Nintendo GameCube in 2002. It used MINI (!) DVDs reverse-spinning (!!), and an "updated" N64 controller. It looked much more a toy than an hardcore controller. Well, it was really cool for that time... until the innovation strikes again with the Wii.

2. Now it's the crucial point of retro x modern gaming - the virtual console success. A few boys love them, but many others don't. They prefer to play something like GTA or another 3D-war-themed game. The Wii itself had the retrogaming option of turning the Wiimote horizontally to play the VC games... and Mega Man 9. Wow... MM9 was a big gift to me, a true retrogamer.

3. From the Wii... nothing more to analyze. We had Paper Mario and New Super Mario Bros. as something close to a retrogame style, but all the new Mario games are in 3D. Well, I'd say "must be in a 3D immersive world because it simply must be". Not really. With the success of Super Mario World and Super Mario Bros. 3 + "innovation" = Super Mario "Crap" Galaxy. >_<;;

4. A retrogaming experience must happen in a retrogaming model. A standard console, standard controllers without the stupid batteries, bluetooth or a must-have internet connection! Multiplayer was your friend and YOU; sometimes, a team of 4 guys (first native model in Nintendo64). Cartridges! Wait... no... it's "innovation", so... let's create a... GAMECARD! A stupid memory card + game, because it's easier to store terabytes in it, if compared with a heavy and big Neo Geo cartridge within 2 boards - one for CPU, another for PPU. Wow. :) :)

5. I don't see value (morally saying) for having a certain game nowadays. In early times, you had the NES Mega Man IV cartridge in your bedroom, hands-on! You could carry the game to a friend's house and play it. You could show your cartridge to your friends, it had a HUGE value! Now... I buy a game in the Playstation Store and download it to my console, and I can redownload it when I need it. Where's the value of this game for you and your friends... wait... friends!? Do you mean the friends list in my Playstation 4 account? :shock:

6. About the Nintendo Switch, well... I don't believe it'll have a long life. A lot of people is no more playing like the Nintendo wants you to play AGAIN like in the Wii times... but worst. A lot of people is no more interested in virtual reality - just tell me if the motion-stuff released on Playstation 3 was a success or not. The disc is no more a default, but gamecards. The home console is no more a default, but mobile devices. The friends side-by-side is no more a default, but a PSN account with tons of virtual friends around the globe. The classic gaming is no more a default, but a modern shooter in a 3D environment with DLCs ready to buy and buy and buy. The closed-game is no more a default, but the entire game needed to be updated. It is the case for the brand new (and horrible) Final Fantasy XV - I bought the PS4 disc... and had a HUGE update once I launched the game! I wonder about a guy that buys "The Witcher 3" and go play the disc... a update is over 20GB!!!

- Let me play my Virtual Console games... or take the dusted old consoles and play them. Modern gaming is going to nowhere! I'm 39 years old. My first console was the Atari 2600 in 1984. From this point, I played every Nintendo console, a Mega Drive console in my friend's house a few times... and so on, I know exactly how the gameplay experience was changing with the years. Unbelievable. Another item of value is gaming magazines! I had a collection of them! Now tell me - what's the value of a gaming magazine nowadays with the internet+Google-God? None.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:23 am 
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Zepper wrote:
. As result, take the CD idea + "innovation" = Nintendo GameCube in 2002. It used MINI (!) DVDs reverse-spinning (!!)

Reverse spinning was a rumor that you can prove false with your own GameCube. Try this: Start a game, then turn the thing off and open the lid to see it slow down and spin in the usual direction, which is clockwise (from the label side) like any other CD or DVD. The actual difference between GameCube discs and standard 80 mm DVD is more like the difference between ordinary CD-ROM and CD-ROM XA, where some parameters in the error correction are taken from the Burst Cutting Area along with the sector locations of six pinholes in the lead-in.

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Well, I'd say "must be in a 3D immersive world because it simply must be". Not really.

At times, Sony required this of licensed developers for PlayStation 1 and 2 (NTSC U/C), as a means of distinguishing its console from the Super NES. This is why we saw Street Fighter EX and Mega Man Legends: Sony Computer Entertainment America required them before Capcom could publish 2D games in the same franchises on PlayStation.

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Multiplayer was your friend and YOU; sometimes, a team of 4 guys (first native model in Nintendo64).

With the average age of a gamer rising to 31 (source: the ESA), multiplayer matchmaking is no longer done after K-12 school. If someone doesn't drink alcohol and his co-workers are non-gamers, then where is an adult supposed to find friends?

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Where's the value of this game for you and your friends... wait... friends!? Do you mean the friends list in my Playstation 4 account? :shock:

Exactly.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:14 am 
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I agree that I dislike a lot of the modern gaming too. (The other difference is that sometimes the game is not enough difficult)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:41 pm 
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I am flabbergasted by the growing cultural acceptance of the notion that one page is a "long text".
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. and Mega Man 9.
(and 10)

Other steps in maintaining the retro chain:
Super Gameboy
Transfer Pak (N64) w/ Pokémon Stadium allowing GB play on TV
e-Reader (NES Classics series)
NES Classics series for GBA
Gameboy Player (GameCube)

A plethora of "testing the waters" for VC on GC: Animal Crossing, NES Metroid (in Metroid Prime), Zelda Collector's Edition, Ocarina of Time + Master Quest preorder bonus disc, Megaman Anniversary Collection, Sonic Mega Collection, (also unlockable games on Sonic Adventure: DX)…

The Wii's actually kind of odd in that it's the first home console (since NES) that they didn't try to make a method for bridging the home console and the portable.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:04 pm 
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tepples wrote:
Zepper wrote:
Well, I'd say "must be in a 3D immersive world because it simply must be". Not really.

At times, Sony required this of licensed developers for PlayStation 1 and 2 (NTSC U/C), as a means of distinguishing its console from the Super NES. This is why we saw Street Fighter EX and Mega Man Legends: Sony Computer Entertainment America required them before Capcom could publish 2D games in the same franchises on PlayStation.

What do you mean by "required"? What's your source for this?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:15 pm 
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Myask wrote:
The Wii's actually kind of odd in that it's the first home console (since NES) that they didn't try to make a method for bridging the home console and the portable.


Wifi Pokemon trading made cables and stuff like that unnecessary.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:30 pm 
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Was Sony's policy on 2D games, discussed here and here and here, since debunked?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:10 pm 
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Video games have interested me less and less ever since I graduated from highschool, but I don't know if it's because I'm a working adult and don't have the same amount of free time as before, or if I'm really outgrowing video games. Mario Odyssey was like a rekindling of my old gamer spark because it's another Sunshine 64, which is exactly the kind of Mario game I've been dying to play again. I also greatly enjoyed A Link Between Worlds, but I was pretty miffed at Skyward Sword for how it made me feel when I played it. I was recently (in the past day or so) reminded of Lumines, and I was just about to set my xbox 360 up to play it again. I was indifferent to AGDQ, but it was nice to have it running on the side, because the played games were indeed interesting.

It's really worrisome that I don't get excited for video games, like "man, I can't wait for AGDQ", or "wow, I really can't wait for magfest", I was just "meh" on both; I enjoyed both, but there wasn't much hype leading up to either. I think there's something else going on in my life that's interfering with this.

So with all of this said, will a return to more classical video game concepts actually be the cure to this?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Drag wrote:
I was recently (in the past day or so) reminded of Lumines, and I was just about to set my xbox 360 up to play it again.

got a gba?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:46 pm 
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My sentiments mirror that of Drag. Most video games (including the ones I do recurringly play -- I know, hypocritical eh) don't provoke the same degree of interest I had in what're now labelled as "retro" or "classic" games. That said, I know the issue isn't entirely with me, because there *are* games I am/was excited about (examples include Fez, Shovel Knight, Axiom Verge (especially this!), and Lizard). I'll also point out there have been some games I've been told to play ("You will enjoy this!") which have turned out to be true: Undertale (barring the "final flower boss/scene", which is a sequence I felt was fucking *horrible*, out-of-place (both in style and visually), and left a bad taste in my mouth) and Owlboy were two.

It's not just about "pixel games" either, as there are a couple "non-pixel" games I've been excited about (the sequel to Orcs Must Die!, Shenzhen I/O, the most recent Doom release, and any time there's a new Nethack).

I would say 90-95% of the time when it comes to game advocacy or releases, I don't believe any social hype I hear. I formulate my own view (probably why I'm also an independent/moderate politically, heh). A lot of the time, those opinions are negative; I'd probably make the worst video game reviewer in history simply because I'm overly critical about what makes a game "fun", and have several strong personal opinions about what present-day games get wrong (i.e. why they're not fun). I'll save those for some other time.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:23 pm 
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tepples wrote:
Was Sony's policy on 2D games, discussed here and here and here, since debunked?

All I could find in these three threads is worthless forum speculation and rumours, but if you think I missed something legitimate, go ahead and point me a little more directly at it.

Sony / Microsoft / Nintendo / Apple / Valve / etc. all reserve the right to reject game licenses for arbitrary reasons. I'm sure Sony did want to see more 3D games on their new system, but I'm very skeptical of the idea of a "ban" on 2D games, and especially of a "you must give us a 3D game before we'll give you a 2D one" policy. That would be truly bizarre to me. They just don't have hard policies like that. Business decisions are made by actual people doing critical evaluation, not some robotic algorithm.

When I was working on some Sony developer applications for PS3 there were questions about how our proposed game might use the sixaxis motion controls and touch sensitive buttons, same deal with Nintendo and the Wii U's controller. The wording was along the lines of "how will this game take advantage of our platform's unique features", because that's a big plus to them. It's not a requirement, though. (Our applications were approved despite providing nothing of value on these points.)

It's just one factor of many as they consider whether to do business with you.

tepples wrote:
This is why we saw Street Fighter EX and Mega Man Legends: Sony Computer Entertainment America required them before Capcom could publish 2D games in the same franchises on PlayStation.

So under your scheme, I suppose Street Fighter Alpha, Street Fighter: The Movie and Mega Man X4 must all have been from different franchises? Hey, what 3D games preceded Rayman, or The Raiden Project despite them being launch titles?

This idea looks fictitious to me.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:43 am 
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Dwedit wrote:
Myask wrote:
The Wii's actually kind of odd in that it's the first home console (since NES) that they didn't try to make a method for bridging the home console and the portable.


Wifi Pokemon trading made cables and stuff like that unnecessary.

I phrased that wrong.

Wii was the first one since NES where there wasn't hardware support for playing that generation's portable games on the home console.

(and, I suppose, the NES got it, unofficially, too, in the Wide Boy.)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:37 am 
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Well... there are EXCELLENT games in my list (mid-to-modern gen), excluding pixel-games like Mega Man 9 or 10, and Street Fighter 2 and 3 (awesome, but I mean mid-to-modern generation games). No specific order.

1. Shadow Hearts II Covenant (Playstation 2).
2. Shadow Hearts III The New World (Playstation 2).
3. Silent Hill Downpour (X360).
4. Metroid Prime (GameCube).
5. Super Mario Sunshine (GameCube).

PSOne games? Nope, only the ported classics were interesting to me (like SF3).

Wii games? Nope, only bought the console because of Mega Man 9. I own the New Super Mario Bros games, but... never beat them. Starting them were cool, but the replay value is too low. The challenge is freakin' high in a few stages too. I own a couple of Wii games (disc), like Tatsunoko VS Capcom, but my gameplay time is less than 4 hours I believe. Well, Super Smash Bros Melee took me a few hours, but ONLY in subspace mode. I'm NOT a fan of multiplayer.

Wii U games? I played & beat Super Mario Galaxy 2, but the replay value is ZERO to me. Too short! Also, I own a few discs too (like Smash Bros because of Mega Man char), and bought the discs that time because Nintendo has left Brazil. Well, the Super Mario 3D World was awesome and very beautiful... but that's all.

I have a problem of starting games... but hardly beat them. -_-;; NES Mega Man games have a high replay value to me! I play them until the present day in my emulator.

Nintendo64 is a classic-to-mid generation in my opinion. I played it A LOT. ^_^;; There are great titles too that took me HOURS of gameplay, like Star Fox, Donkey Kong 64, Mega Man 64 and Yoshi's Story.

Code:
Personal rating of consoles
---------------------------
NES - classic gen
Super NES - classic+ gen
Nintendo64 - classic-to-mid gen
Playstation/Playstation2 - mid gen
GameCube - mid+ gen
Wii - modern gen
X360/Wii U - modern+ gen
PS4 - modern++ gen


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:14 pm 
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Zepper wrote:
Wii U games? I played & beat Super Mario Galaxy 2

Mario Galaxy 2 is a Wii game, though there was a downloadable version for Wii U but it was still just the game running in Wii emulation mode.

I really liked 3D World a lot.

I notice you omitted anything earlier than NES from your ranking. What about the 2600? Intellivision? Coleco?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Zepper wrote:
Code:
Personal rating of consoles
---------------------------
NES - classic gen
Super NES - classic+ gen
Nintendo64 - classic-to-mid gen
Playstation/Playstation2 - mid gen
GameCube - mid+ gen
Wii - modern gen
X360/Wii U - modern+ gen
PS4 - modern++ gen

How is the n64 classic-to-mid gen while the PS is mid gen??? The n64 came out after it, and arguably had more advance 3D hardware (the filtering felt almost next gen). As well as the PS having more 2D games. I don't get this.

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