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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:34 am 
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They will be different for sure. They're only the same on a thematical level, so i find it is a bit comparing pears and apples and wouldn't say one is superior (unless the 2.5d turns out a stinker).

For one thing, smooth animation is that much less manual labour with 3d models (or 2d vector graphics) because of automation. Set a couple of key frames and plot curve and travel over n time and done (if it looks right). That means you can focus on other/more tasks.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:16 am 
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Plus there are more developers that specialize in 3D than 2D nowdays I think.

rainwarrior wrote:
Pokun wrote:
Metroid 2 was a really great game with a very cool ending though, and I hope this remake will be as good as Zero Mission was.

I strongly recommend AM2R.

Yeah I gotta play that one someday. I managed to snatch it, somehow, after it had been taken down.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:50 am 
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Pokun wrote:
In New Super Mario Bros it feels like you loose some precision for the collision detection. On the other hand it seems to work well in the Smash Bros series.

I know what you mean, and I definitely agree with you, but I think it bears mentioning that New SMB actually uses prerendered sprites rather than 3D models. It helps the problem a little. Of course games like the PS1/PC version of Lost Vikings 2 (compared to the SNES one) proves that horrible prerendered graphics can definitely obscure hitboxes and visible background collisions, too.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:06 am 
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There's no actual limit towards how tight 3d or 2d vector animation and physics can get, but it often seems to me that 3d animators are generally more sloppy with these things and tend to over-smooth their work. Alltogether i suspect timing is an aspect that's not as present as it was in frame by frame hand animation (and its raster counterpart), both at courses and in what comes "naturally" in digital animation studios. Sloppy keyframing is definitely a major culprit.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:58 am 
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Heh didn't know New SMB used sprites. Googling tells me that Mario Maker and all New SMB games before the Wii U ones uses prerendered sprites.

Besides sloppy keyframing it might also be that I'm simply not used to the new look and hit-boxes. I've played the old 2D Mario games for hours and hours as a kid so I'd never miss a platform because I missjudged the hit-box in those games, while on the other hand I only played each New Super Mario Bros title about once (and not even all of them). They are just not as fun as the old 2D games was and I can't put the finger on why it is like that.

Smash Bros to the 64 and Gamecube I've played to death and back.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:13 am 
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That and there are a lot more arbitrarily angled platforms, which ruins the practice of judging jumps through a subconscious sense of the metatile grid.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:55 am 
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Absolutely. This is actually one of the charms of classic 8bit and 16bit video games, and one of the major reasons I decided to pursue NES development. ("I want to make a game that follows these classic virtues, so why not work in an environment that will naturally lead me towards the same design choices?"). Even if you don't look into it in details, you will probably subconsciously pick up on the classic 16x16 metatile collisions that a majority of NES titles use, and it makes it easier to react to this stuff. Many western developed platformers would often try to break this mold and at least try to APPEAR like their gaphics weren't bound by specific tiles, and the result was often much more obscure collision detection. Popular examples would be stuff like Earthworm Jim, Lion King, Maui Mallard, etc.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:52 am 
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Lion king unleashed a hidden depository of ragequits and thrown controllers. Not from me, of course :P

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:34 pm 
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For not mentioning Donkey Kong Country with its rounded platforms and various very differently shaped player characters (especially when riding animals). Which also brings us back to sprites and backgrounds made of prerendered 3D.

Yoshi Island on the other hand was good at balancing precise collision with pretty and rounded metatiles. It was the game that took people back to earth again after having been blinded by DKC's prerendered graphics. Going against the current 3D trend and still being able to make a much better and more beautiful game was just brilliant.

I certainly agree with Sumez, the precise collision detection of these old games is one of their charms and I really want to recreate this feeling in my own projects.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:29 pm 
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It may have been something someone made up, but I remember at the time the magazines were talking about Nintendo having held back Yoshi's Island due to Donkey Kong Country, which some may remember was a crazy hyped up game at the time due to the "3D" graphics. Apparently Nintendo were afraid that going with such a distinctly 2D look would seem like a backwards move. In fact I don't even remember hearing anything about the game until shortly before its release, it was a bit of a surprise hit.

Or of course, maybe they just delayed it because they didn't want the games to compete, who can tell.

Either way, Yoshi's Island is by far one of the best looking SNES games of all time, I doubt many would disagree. It also has a ton of rounded platforms btw.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:46 am 
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Yes from what I understand the game was drawn more like Super Mario World at first, and was rejected because it didn't stand out as much as the prerendered graphics of DKC which set a new standard. But in order to make the game stand out more they decided to use this crayon art-style instead of prerendered 3D. And yeah the result is just so much better.

I remember some magazines blinded by the freshness of DKC unfairly gave it a perfect score, but later realized that it was really just an inferior SMBW clone (although a very good one) with funky graphics.

Yoshi Island is indeed still one of the best looking games of all time. It has rounded platforms and Yoshi with baby Mario is a weirdly shaped character, but this seldom poses a problem with the collision detection unlike say Donkey Kong riding on Winky the frog.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:59 am 
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Since you're from Sweden I'm guessing we probably read the same magazine :P I recognize the issue with them awarding it a rare, unanimous 100% score, and later taking it back in the "review scores for every single SNES game" feature.

I wouldn't call DKC a SMBW clone though, the games are very different.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:14 am 
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Heh yeah it's a Swedish magazine. I'm surprised so many non-Swedish Scandinavians read it. Was it translated to Danish or did you read it in Swedish?
But I think everyone was blinded by the appeal of Donkey Kong Country, and other magazines may also have given it unfair scores at the time.

It's not a SMW clone? The whole concept is very similar to Mario games (stomping on enemies, bananas instead of coins, powerups comes in barrels instead of blocks), and especially SMW (the world map is pretty much ripped from SMB3 and SMW) so I'd call it a clone. I don't mean a clone in a bad way though.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:30 am 
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Pokun wrote:
Heh yeah it's a Swedish magazine. I'm surprised so many non-Swedish Scandinavians read it. Was it translated to Danish or did you read it in Swedish?

It was translated to Danish. It wasn't even entirely upfront about that either. Though when they converted from "Nintendo Magasinet" to "Power Player" (I think called "Super Play" or something in Sweden?) they were also more upfront about the names of the editors which was a bit of a giveaway, and some times some sections went accidentally untranslated. They did add a Danish mailbox section and competitions and some other stuff in the Danish version.
In 1995 it just randomly vanished (right when N64 was on its way, too) with no explanation whatsoever, and I had no idea what was going on. From that point on up until I eventually got an internet connection I had very few ways to get updated about console game news. :|

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It's not a SMW clone? The whole concept is very similar to Mario games (stomping on enemies, bananas instead of coins, powerups comes in barrels instead of blocks), and especially SMW (the world map is pretty much ripped from SMB3 and SMW) so I'd call it a clone. I don't mean a clone in a bad way though.

These are all platform game tropes though. You could say those elements were all ripped from Super Mario Bros. 1, but almost 10 years later, that's kinda like calling Halo a Doom clone.
The way the game plays is very different from the Mario games, and much closer to what you'd see in most other western platformers at the time and previously. Almost every game had a map, and the one in DKC is very simple with none of the unique interactive elements that are characteristic for SMB3 or SMW.
I guess it doesn't make sense to discuss semantics, though.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:48 am 
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Pokun wrote:
Heh yeah it's a Swedish magazine. I'm surprised so many non-Swedish Scandinavians read it. Was it translated to Danish or did you read it in Swedish?

Super Power? It was published in Finland (in Finnish), at least. I don't know if it was a straight-up translation, probably a combination of translated articles and some original content.

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