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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:47 pm 
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And cables do differ between N64, SNES and GameCube despite having same connectors. Most cables are made for NTSC machines and are typically very low quality.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:52 pm 
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In my case, I'm only talking about the authentic Nintendo cables, not third party ones:
Is there any difference between Nintendo's cable that they put into NTSC Super Nintendos and the one that they put into PAL Super Nintendos?
And is there any difference between the one for SNES and the one for N64?

If yes, what are the differences? And how can I distinguish the cables from the outside?
(Looks like even the original Nintendo ones exist in gray and in black/darkgray. Which one is from which time period?)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:20 pm 
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There is a difference, PAL cables have a 75ohm load resistor on the composhit signal, while NTSC cables do not have it and RGB cables have these load resistors on the RGB signals also. NTSC RGB cables have no resistors and instead DC blocking capacitors.

Using NTSC cable on a PAL machine will produce an image that is too bright when using a composhit cable and with RGB you only get a brief image that dims to black within few seconds.
Using PAL composhit or RGB cable on NTSC machine will produce a dark image that may go out of sync.
Gamecube RGB cable will be able to show composhit on a PAL SNES but not RGB, on NTSC SNES RGB is fine but composhit will be dark and sync is not guaranteed with all TVs.
PAL N64 cables should be equivalents of PAL SNES cables and NTSC N64 ones should match the NTSC SNES ones too.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:00 am 
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TmEE wrote:
RGB cable generally means a SCART cable

TmEE wrote:
NTSC RGB cables have no resistors

How can there be an NTSC RGB cable if RGB means SCART and SCART is European?

Can you please show me an NTSC RGB cable?

So, is there a way to see if the cable is for PAL or NTSC?
What's the difference between the one with the light gray and the black/dark gray plastic? And which one is older?

TmEE wrote:
[...] composhit [...] composhit [...] composhit [...] composhit [...]

O.k., thanks, I get it. You can stop this now.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:54 am 
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TmEE wrote:
There is a difference, PAL cables have a 75ohm load resistor on the composhit signal, while NTSC cables do not have it and RGB cables have these load resistors on the RGB signals also.
Are you specifically talking about cables that connect to Nintendo consoles, or any TV cable? Because I have never heard this about TV cables in general.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:25 am 
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Monitors with 15.7 kHz by 60 Hz analog RGB input include arcade monitors, professional monitors used in video production (such as the Sony BVM), and the AppleColor RGB Monitor for the Apple IIGS computer. Some TVs can be hacked to accept RGB by hijacking internal connections intended for the on-screen display. But I concede that RGB in the 60 Hz market wasn't nearly as common in home entertainment scenarios as SCART in Europe.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:41 am 
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tepples wrote:
Some TVs can be hacked to accept RGB by hijacking internal connections intended for the on-screen display.

Yeah, but this kind of altering the TV is out of the question for me.


That's why I'm still wondering why I was suggested to use an RGB cable on an NTSC TV:

If this is supposed to be a SCART cable, then this isn't really applicable to regular run of the mill American TVs, so I'm surprised this cable was suggested in such a regular offhand manner.

If it's supposed to be another kind of cable (for example another SNES-to-composite cable, but some that recalculates the values accordingly), then I'd like to know what cable this is.


By the way, which of the SNES cable is the older one? The one with the light gray plastic or the one with the black/dark gray plastic? And when and why was the layout changed?

NewRisingSun wrote:
TmEE wrote:
There is a difference, PAL cables have a 75ohm load resistor on the composhit signal, while NTSC cables do not have it and RGB cables have these load resistors on the RGB signals also.
Are you specifically talking about cables that connect to Nintendo consoles, or any TV cable? Because I have never heard this about TV cables in general.

I'd be interested in this as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:16 am 
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DRW wrote:
That's why I'm still wondering why I was suggested to use an RGB cable on an NTSC TV:
I suggested it because using an RGB connection is a sure way of avoiding the NTSC encoding-decoding process. I don't know at all whether it is possible to do that with your particular kind of TV. I'm not a technical support hotline that can give you the exact part number. It may well be possible that this is not possible with your TV, and that you just have to live with it, like generations of American gamers before you.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:46 am 
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So, you are talking about a SCART cable? Or do you mean something different?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:50 am 
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A SCART cable is one type of RGB cable. A JAMMA connection is another. A YPbPr trio of cables is yet another.

DRW wrote:
If this is supposed to be a SCART cable, then this isn't really applicable to regular run of the mill American TVs, so I'm surprised this cable was suggested in such a regular offhand manner.
Whether it is "applicable" to American TVs is irrelevant, as my statement was not designed to be strictly applicable to American TVs. If your American TV has neither SCART nor YPbPr connections, then you cannot connect RGB signals directly, and then you just have to live with oversatured SNES pictures.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:00 am 
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NewRisingSun wrote:
A SCART cable is one type of RGB cable. A JAMMA connection is another. A YPbPr trio of cables is yet another.

My question was: Which cable did you have in mind specifically for the Super Nintendo? You said "use an RGB cable" as if you mean a very specific cable.
So, I wanted to know: Which SNES RGB cable were you talking about specifically in the situation where I asked what I can do regarding the color issue?

NewRisingSun wrote:
Whether it is "applicable" to American TVs is irrelevant, as my statement was not designed to be strictly applicable to American TVs.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but you explicitly said:
NewRisingSun wrote:
The solution should be to avoid the NTSC encoding-decoding process by getting the SNES' RGB signal directly, using an RGB cable.


And so I was asking myself what kind of NTSC SNES RGB cable you were talking about.
SCART is European.
JAMMA is arcade boards.

You see why I was confused? What is an RGB cable that can be used for the SNES to avoid the NTSC encoding/decoding?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:11 am 
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Because the multi out has slightly different pinouts and signal characteristics between the NTSC and PAL Super NES, the SCART cables for NTSC and PAL Super NES differ slightly. "Super Nintendo / Super Famicom RGB SCART Cables and sync information" on RetroRGB describes this difference, and "SCART to Display" on RetroRGB describes adapters to use a SCART cable made for an NTSC Super NES with a 15.7 kHz by 60 Hz analog RGB display whose connector is something other than SCART.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:18 am 
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DRW wrote:
And so I was asking myself what kind of NTSC SNES RGB cable you were talking about.
Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as an "NTSC SNES RGB cable", because it's not NTSC if it's RGB, if one uses "NTSC" to describe a particular method of encoding a color signal. One can say NTSC SNES RGB if "NTSC" refers to the U.S. region, or to a 525 lines/60 Hz scanning standard. (The original 1953 NTSC specification refers to an RF-modulated signal, for what it's worth.)
DRW wrote:
You see why I was confused? What is an RGB cable that can be used for the SNES to avoid the NTSC encoding/decoding?
There is a cable: http://retrorgb.com/snescsync.html

If you cannot connect it to your TV, then it's a problem of your TV, not a problem of there being no cable, so stop asking why I bring up a cable that you cannot connect to the average American TV. Your average American TV with no RGB or YPbPr connection is forever and invariably doomed to displaying oversaturated SNES pictures.

DRW wrote:
SCART is European.
No. It's just called "EIA Multiport" in America (and very uncommon), or JP21 with a different pin assignment.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:12 pm 
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NTSC and PAL units have different output circuits, requiring dedicated cables. A form of region locking, Nintendo did the same thing with controllers too and only way to defeat it is to modify the controller or the console. So "NTSC cable" reads as "Cable for NTSC machine" and PAL cable as "cable for PAL machine".

I don't think there was any official RGB cable for NTSC SNES (but there is the "Japanese SCART" which uses same connector as EU stuff but with a different pinout, but those are probably pretty rare if they do exist). Probably all the RGB cables you see on ebay are aftermarket stuff and made for NTSC machines and they will not work on PAL things, but with small modifications they can be made compatible (adding some resistors).

As far as the red-white-yellow (c....t :P) cables go, PAL cables have an extra resistor on the video signal that NTSC cables lack. I mentioned earlier that this resistor is responsible for incompatibility. Cables you can buy in EU are most probably PAL cables and will not work correctly on a NTSC machine. If you are not sure that your AV cable in NTSC you may want to get one. If you have access to a multimeter you can determine that by taking a resistance reading between tip and barrel of the yellow connector, PAL cable will show 75 ohms and NTSC cable infinity.
I have no unmodded consoles to demonstrate how mismatched cable and console look unfortunately.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:19 pm 
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NewRisingSun wrote:
Your average American TV with no RGB or YPbPr connection is forever and invariably doomed to displaying oversaturated SNES pictures.

If that's the case, then it is so. I just wanted to check the possibilities. (Also, I'm not stuck to oversaturated images. I can simply adjust the image for Super Nintendo.)


So, what I still need to know regarding this whole topic:

Why does the SNES-to-composite cable exist in two layouts? One in gray and one in black. (And please note that both are authentic Nintendo cables, not third party ones):
Attachment:
Cables.PNG
Cables.PNG [ 300.25 KiB | Viewed 518 times ]

Is there any difference between them?
Were these created randomly or do they point to a different time frame?

Do they differ in any way? (Assuming both are for NTSC of course.)


Which picture properties do I have to alter when adjusting the TV for colorimetry? (I.e. when the NES image is already fine, but SNES is too colorful and now I want to set the values for the SNES, so that they are as fine as for the NES.)
I already know that I have to decrease color saturation, so that the red is not so powerful.
What about brightness, contrast etc.? Sould they be altered as well?


TmEE wrote:
As far as the red-white-yellow (c....t :P) cables go, PAL cables have an extra resistor on the video signal that NTSC cables lack. I mentioned earlier that this resistor is responsible for incompatibility. Cables you can buy in EU are most probably PAL cables and will not work correctly on a NTSC machine.

For my NES, I'm using a composite cable that I bought in Germany and I never had any problems, even though the NES and the TV are both American.
Can you describe what kind of incompatibility may happen here?

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