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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:49 am 
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Yeah that is one possible explanation to all the weirdness. I haven't beaten Super Mario Galaxy 2 yet, but the story in that seems to totally ignore the previous game (no spoilers please).

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If Miyamoto didn't like the American background story, why didn't he invent its own, but where Mario is still from the real world? Why did Mario, the Italian plumber, have to become a Mushroom Kingdom native who was brought by the stork?
Only he can answer that, but I guess because he is an artist and simply creates what he feels is right at the moment. That's what I do when I make fictional works. Personally, the way I see the stork delivering the Mario brothers is more like a figurative way of explaining how he was born (it IS a classic story used to explain where babies come from after all), and it fits the Mario universe perfectly (in other words Mario's parents probably did it). Of course Kamek must have kidnapped him figuratively as well before he was born somehow. This adds the mystery to it which I really enjoy.

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Why did Mario need a prequel with his baby self at all? If the games aren't about story, why do we need a game dealing specifically with Mario's backstory and with the start of his rivalry with Bowser (even making him some prophesized messiah type)?
I don't mean Mario games are not about story at all (Donkey Kong was one of the earliest games with a detailed story after all) I just mean that Nintendo probably isn't very concerned about plot holes and stuff when they make a new story for a Mario game, unlike when making a Zelda game for example where the story is less relaxed.

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think that the New Donk City residents shouldn't have been designed in a realistic style...
I see you just don't like character design of the people in New Donk City. I think it just adds to the atmosphere and nostalgia by seeing their type of clothes and stuff, but I was as surprised as anyone else when I first saw it. We'll have to see how it turns out when it's released.

Quote:
Attacking Bowser doesn't make him small before another attack finishes him off...
Bowser is a powerful turtle demon, I don't think he uses super mushrooms, that's probably mainly only Mario and Luigi. Although the Mario RPG series shows that various mushrooms are common items in the mushroom kingdom sold as medicine.

Quote:
Of course, when it's about actually playing the games, it doesn't matter. I don't sit there in front of my NES and think about the plot when I play it.
But it's an interesting thing for meta discussions like this one here.
If story shouldn't be analyzed, they shouldn't have invented any to begin with.
It's very interesting to analyse things logically, but on the other the Mario series is based as much on mystery as on logic so a logical discussion is bound to run into all sorts of problems sooner or later. As I enjoy the mysteries a lot, I guess I'm quite accepting to many of them.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:24 pm 
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tepples wrote:
I thought a cut scene in Super Mario Galaxy already explained it: The universe goes through multiple generations, occasionally collapsing into a supermassive black hole and being reborn as a new canon.

I don't know the "Galaxy" games, so I cannot say whether the cutscene implies that the games are part of different cycles of the universe or whether they are still intended to be part of the same universe iteration. At least "Super Mario Sunshine" acknowledges "Super Mario Bros. 1" as part of the same continuity.

Pokun wrote:
Personally, the way I see the stork delivering the Mario brothers is more like a figurative way of explaining how he was born (it IS a classic story used to explain where babies come from after all), and it fits the Mario universe perfectly (in other words Mario's parents probably did it). Of course Kamek must have kidnapped him figuratively as well before he was born somehow. This adds the mystery to it which I really enjoy.

This doesn't really make sense. So, you wanna tell me that "Yoshi's Island" is the one game that didn't play out in a literal way, but that just displays events in a metaphorical way that happened totally differently inside the universe?

Pokun wrote:
I see you just don't like character design of the people in New Donk City. I think it just adds to the atmosphere and nostalgia by seeing their type of clothes and stuff

What kind of nostalgia? When have these kind of people ever been shown in another "Mario" game, so that you can speak of nostalgia?

And about atmosphere: Well, it certainly adds to an atmosphere where Mario isn't just what humans look like in his world, but that the "Super Mario" world literally consists of comicbook characters and realistic characters side by side. And yeah, I don't like that.

As I said, that's like if celebrities in "The Simpsons" would be drawn realistically instead of in a yellow, simpsonized version.

Which picture matches the atmosphere in "The Simpsons" better and which drawing style would be out of place in an episode?
Attachment:
Luke.png
Luke.png [ 534.96 KiB | Viewed 322 times ]

Pokun wrote:
As I enjoy the mysteries a lot, I guess I'm quite accepting to many of them.

I wouldn't say that plot holes and things that were done because they didn't care for the story count as mysteries. Stuff like certain details pointing to certain timelines in "Breath of the Wild" might be mysteries. Stuff like the castle in "Super Mario 64" being designed for characters in their small form while other games always design everything for the characters in their super form is not a mystery. It's just Miyamoto not giving a shit about continuity.
(By the way, why does no 3D game incorporate Super Mushrooms and Mario's size differences?)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:27 am 
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At least "Super Mario Sunshine" acknowledges "Super Mario Bros. 1" as part of the same continuity.
Where does it do that? Sunshine is the game that introduced Bowser Jr, King Koopa's only son, and therefore swears off his fathership to the other 7 koopa kids. It may be in the same continuity as SMB but not as SMB3 (and possibly not SMW either) for this reason. This is one of the things I have a hard time to accept, but it's confirmed to be canon.

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This doesn't really make sense. So, you wanna tell me that "Yoshi's Island" is the one game that didn't play out in a literal way, but that just displays events in a metaphorical way that happened totally differently inside the universe?
It doesn't make logical sense, that's what defines mystery no? In my way of viewing it, they as game characters can defy common logic and walk into the metaphorical plane like it was the real world just because the developers decided so (much like cartoon characters can do unrealistic things and considers it perfectly normal just because the drawer decided so). So the events in Yoshi Island happens as real as any of the other games. I'm not sweating the details though, this is enough for me to accept that Mario came in by the stork but still was born as a normal kid at the same time, depending on how you view it.

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What kind of nostalgia? When have these kind of people ever been shown in another "Mario" game, so that you can speak of nostalgia?
I don't mean just Mario nostalgia, it's the western culture from a certain time period (that Japanese people also are crazy about) that the nostalgia is about. I believe Nintendo was trying to go for that design in Donkey Kong and they are trying to capture that atmosphere again by creating New Donk City.

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As I said, that's like if celebrities in "The Simpsons" would be drawn realistically instead of in a yellow, simpsonized version.

Which picture matches the atmosphere in "The Simpsons" better and which drawing style would be out of place in an episode?
I really think Nintendo is still within reasonable limits of what is artistically tasteful, although the character design is shocking at first. We might have to wait until we know more about the New Donk City world before speculating too much though.

Quote:
I wouldn't say that plot holes and things that were done because they didn't care for the story count as mysteries. Stuff like certain details pointing to certain timelines in "Breath of the Wild" might be mysteries. Stuff like the castle in "Super Mario 64" being designed for characters in their small form while other games always design everything for the characters in their super form is not a mystery. It's just Miyamoto not giving a shit about continuity.
(By the way, why does no 3D game incorporate Super Mushrooms and Mario's size differences?)
Well about anything that doesn't make sense can be more or less hand waved as mysteries, and when it comes to the Mario series I'm more accepting to them than I would be in for example the Zelda series. That was my point.
Regarding sizes, I think it's all about drawing style here. Koopa's size differs greatly from game to game. I think Super Mushrooms aren't in 3D Mario games simply because they couldn't think of a fun way to use them in within the development time. And I believe that Super Mario is bigger than normal people, despite the inconsistency in the games. If Super Mushrooms would be in a 3D Mario (not counting Mario 3D Land or 3D World here as they are more of a mix of 2D and 3D Mario games) I guess they would either work something like the Big Mushroom in the NSMB games or just be used to recover life instead of coins. I'd prefer that later actually, I never liked that coins are used to recover life. It just makes you save coins for later if you take damage instead of grabbing as many as you can to increase a score. Mushrooms would be perfect for life recovery.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:09 am 
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Pokun wrote:
Quote:
At least "Super Mario Sunshine" acknowledges "Super Mario Bros. 1" as part of the same continuity.
Where does it do that?

I cannot find it right now, but as far as I remember, the game has a scene where an actual SMB1 scene (Mario fighting Bowser) is shown, complete in authentic NES style.

Pokun wrote:
It may be in the same continuity as SMB but not as SMB3 (and possibly not SMW either) for this reason.

From the deleopers point of view: Retconning the Koopalings from being Bowser's children doesn't mean that these old games are thrown out of the continuity. It just means that they are retroactively not his children anymore, i.e. Bowser didn't give the seven magic wands of the Mushroom World kings to his children, but to his minions in SMB3.

Pokun wrote:
It doesn't make logical sense, that's what defines mystery no? In my way of viewing it, they as game characters can defy common logic and walk into the metaphorical plane like it was the real world just because the developers decided so

Well, this is only justified if the developers actually did these unrealistic things. But the current theory (Mario was brought by the stork inside the game, but in actuality, he was conceived by his parents through regular sex and was born in a regular, biological way) is nothing that was actually confirmed by anybody. That was made up by yourself. As far as the canon is concerned, Mario was literally brought by a stork and the events in the game played out like they are shown. Obviously, in current Mario canon, children of the Mushroom Kingdom are not born, but brought by the stork.

Pokun wrote:
I don't mean just Mario nostalgia, it's the western culture from a certain time period (that Japanese people also are crazy about) that the nostalgia is about.

Well, nostalgia for that time period still doesn't necessarily require hyper-realistic people. They could have used an urban city and 1920 to 1940-styled clothes and still used the comic book style. As is pretty well demonstrated by the following video:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQgfiACf64M

Nostalgia for time periods, locations and events has no correlation to the drawing styles of characters. Those are congruent: You can have a fairytale world with realistic-looking characters, a fairytale world with comic-like characters, a realistic-looking world with realistic-looking characters and a realistic-looking world with comic-like characters.

Displaying a metropolis wouldn't have necessiated realistic-looking characters next to a comicbook-styled Mario. (Again: A Halloween episode of "The Simpsons" playing in the context of a 1920s film noir wouldn't have the characters be drawn DC Comics-style, but still with an overbite and four fingers.)

Pokun wrote:
I really think Nintendo is still within reasonable limits of what is artistically tasteful

Of course it's "tasteful". But it's such a huge departure that we cannot just claim that those are simply two drawing styles which, in-universe, are still supposed to represent the same kind of people. The drawing style and especially the height is so different from each other that the most likely assumption is that Mario is just as much a different species from the New Donk City people as he's a different species from Toad.

Pokun wrote:
And I believe that Super Mario is bigger than normal people, despite the inconsistency in the games.

Definitely not. In every game where there is Mario and Super Mario, all the other human-like characters are only to scale with him if he's big. Toad is a giant next to small Mario. He's only smaller than him if Mario is in his Super form.
There was never a "Mario" game where non-playable characters are to scale to small Mario while Super Mario overshadowed them all. In each and every game, all the other characters seem to be in their Super form constantly. Princess Toadstool is always bigger than Mario and Super Mario.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:52 am 
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Quote:
cannot find it right now, but as far as I remember, the game has a scene where an actual SMB1 scene (Mario fighting Bowser) is shown, complete in authentic NES style.
Oh interesting, I can't remember that scene at all. Have to replay that game some time.

Quote:
From the deleopers point of view: Retconning the Koopalings from being Bowser's children doesn't mean that these old games are thrown out of the continuity. It just means that they are retroactively not his children anymore, i.e. Bowser didn't give the seven magic wands of the Mushroom World kings to his children, but to his minions in SMB3.
I see, so it fits in both timelines if you ignore the fact that Koopa introduces them as his kids in the SMB3 manual. I still don't like it though.

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the current theory (Mario was brought by the stork inside the game, but in actuality, he was conceived by his parents through regular sex and was born in a regular, biological way) is nothing that was actually confirmed by anybody. That was made up by yourself.
Yes, sorry if I wasn't clear. This is purely my thoughts about it, and not confirmed canon or anything. But I don't mean he was "in actuality" born biologically but "also", so both are true depending on which fits the current theme.

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Nostalgia for time periods, locations and events has no correlation to the drawing styles of characters.
Now you are just being silly. Of course there's a correlation.

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Of course it's "tasteful". But it's such a huge departure that we cannot just claim that those are simply two drawing styles which, in-universe, are still supposed to represent the same kind of people.
I think we can. But the current Mario is from another world than New Donk City, so I don't know if they are the same kind of people, although they are both obviously human.

Quote:
In every game where there is Mario and Super Mario, all the other human-like characters are only to scale with him if he's big. Toad is a giant next to small Mario. He's only smaller than him if Mario is in his Super form.

You forgot Super Mario Bros. Princess Toadstool is bigger than normal Mario but smaller than Super Mario. In Super Mario Allstars version however, he gets a Super Mushroom before seeing the princess if he is small so that he fits the scene. I still think small Mario is the normal Mario, and no one else are normally using the Super Mushroom's powers. The games are just too inconsistent on this matter to rely on them, it's mostly about drawing style and such I think.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:01 pm 
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Yvan and Peach do shrooms in Super Mario Bros. 2: Mario Madness. (Super Mario All-Stars replaces Yvan with Toad.) Yvan doesn't show up again until New Super Mario Bros. Wii.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:52 pm 
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Pokun wrote:
Quote:
Nostalgia for time periods, locations and events has no correlation to the drawing styles of characters.
Now you are just being silly. Of course there's a correlation.

Nonsense. The way bodily features look like has nothing to do with the time frame the story plays in.

If a DC comic book story, like "Batman", plays in ancient Rome, the characters will not suddenly be drawn in "Asterix" style. And if there was ever a flash forward in an "Asterix" comic to our times, his descendents would still have that huge round nose and wouldn't suddenly look realistic.

Sure, clothes and that stuff, that has a correlation. But not the bodily features.
Because guess what: In the last few thousand years, people more or less looked the same.
People in the middle ages didn't have huge round noses and oversized heads either. They looked just like us.

So, the idea: "A comic-like drawing style fits to a middle ages kingdom with princesses and evil tyrants while a realistic style fits to a modern city" makes no sense. In the real world, both setting had regular humans. Therefore, you can choose one of both styles for either setting.

There's no correlation whatsoever that "oversized head, round nose, unrealistically-shaped mustache = ancient kingdom, realistic proportions = modern city".

Pokun wrote:
But the current Mario is from another world than New Donk City, so I don't know if they are the same kind of people, although they are both obviously human.

They are different kinds of humans now.

Pokun wrote:
You forgot Super Mario Bros. Princess Toadstool is bigger than normal Mario but smaller than Super Mario.

I knew that you would bring this up, I just knew it.

I didn't mention it because there's a very obvious reason for that: In the original "Super Mario Bros.", she didn't have her official artwork yet. In that game, Princess Toadstool actually was supposed to be smaller than Mario. The idea that the Princess is taller than Mario had not yet been established:
Attachment:
SMB artwork.png
SMB artwork.png [ 289.48 KiB | Viewed 275 times ]

So, the Princess sprite in "Super Mario Bros." still doesn't prove that Super Mario towers over the other characters because it's not yet based on the way Princess Toadstool canonically looks like. She was not supposed to be taller than Mario by that time.

And again, even in SMB1, the size of those tiny little Mushroom Retainers only makes sense towards Mario if he's big. Toad is always depicted smaller than Mario, and yet, this is only true when Mario is Super Mario.

So, either small Mario is really a dwarf form with Super Mario being his regular form. This would contradict the old games, though, where they clearly label him:
Small = Mario, big = Super Mario.

Or Super Mario is a giant of 3 m and all other Mushroom Kingdom people are always in their Super form by default as well because it makes them stronger and the Goombas and Koopa Troopers don't appear so huge because even a Goomba is 1.5 m.
But in this case, the official heights by Nintendo are off because in them, Bowser, who never grows or shrinks with Super Mushrooms, is only a bit taller than Mario, but Mario's height is still given at 1.55 m.

But small Mario being his regular 1.55 m form and the other characters always being in their small form, with Bowser being maybe 2 m, and Super Mario being taller than Bowser, that's never true.

tepples wrote:
Yvan and Peach do shrooms in Super Mario Bros. 2: Mario Madness.

Right. Other humans-like characters can do this too, not just Mario and Luigi.

tepples wrote:
(Super Mario All-Stars replaces Yvan with Toad.)

Only if you put any weight into the design decisions by the graphics artist who had to decide whether to use the three colors per sprite to give Toad his blue vest and therefore a blue mushroom top, or if they use the correct mushroom top color, but have to give him red outlines.
Would you have chosen red outlines?

People who seriously try to interpret anything into these kind of color choices should maybe start reading about the NES hardware. The drawn artworks on the box and in the manual clearly show that this is not supposed to be blue Toad and that they had given him a red top if the NES had supported more colors at once.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:01 pm 
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DRW wrote:
tepples wrote:
(Super Mario All-Stars replaces Yvan with Toad.)

Only if you put any weight into the design decisions by the graphics artist who had to decide whether to use the three colors per sprite to give Toad his blue vest and therefore a blue mushroom top, or if they use the correct mushroom top color, but have to give him red outlines.
Would you have chosen red outlines?

Image
The Wario's Woods artist did


Anyone feel like whipping up a Game Genie code for SMB2:MM to change Toad's outline color to $16?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:09 pm 
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Sooo, is this yet another Mushroom Kingdom resident since he doesn't wear Toad's blue vest?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:02 pm 
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And now I'm confused. Nintendo originally said red spots and red vest in Galaxy's Toad Brigade was Toad, but later, this design became a separate character named Captain Toad.

The vest is more likely to vary, however, than the cap. I'm not aware of any case where the cap leaves the head. The one game where Mario's hat comes loose during a jump (Super Mario World) doesn't have Toad at all. Toad's cap does, however, come off in DiC cartoons. This still shows a removed red spotted cap (and a red vest). And once it changes shape to a helmet (Super Show 10-24 "Toad Warriors"). Incidentally, Toad's cap in Super Mario Kart (see sprites) looks more like a helmet than his usual cap.

What would Toad look like in a more realistic style? Spotted in WDW


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:43 pm 
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Even as a kid I understood that the blue spots was a hardware limitation, I was used to the NES system's colour weirdness already. Maybe a red outline just looked bad with some backgrounds?

Captain Toad's Japanese name is Kinopio-taichou (Captain Kinopio) so it sounds like it's the same character as Toad? Or is Kinopio just a common name among the mushroom people? Sometimes I'm not even sure if Kinopio is supposed to be a unique person as they all look alike, and many games just have random mushroom retainers without any indication of anyone of them being Kinopio/Toad. But many other games like Mario RPG seems to confirm his unique existence, and Kinopiko/Toadette is definitely a unique character.

Yeah the mushroom retainers are based on traditional Arabian clothes with the toadstool cap as instead of a turban, so I guess he would look something like that.

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Nonsense. The way bodily features look like has nothing to do with the time frame the story plays in.
...
Sure, clothes and that stuff, that has a correlation. But not the bodily features.
Maybe you misunderstood me but I mean both the clothes and general drawing style are part of the style, not just anatomy. And of course a drawing style can be connected with a culture and/or time period, for example by mimicking a drawing style that is generally considered the popular drawing style from a certain culture in a certain time period you can capture that feeling. We are talking about New Donk City here and I think the style is quite apparent no?

Quote:
Yvan and Peach do shrooms in Super Mario Bros. 2: Mario Madness.
Yeah yeah I'm not saying no one but Mario and Luigi are eating mushrooms, I already told you that in the Mario RPG series everyone are using mushrooms as medicine. I'm saying that I think the Super Mushrooms are generally only used by Mario and Luigi (and whatever other heroes are out and rescuing princesses or whatnot). I don't believe the people in the mushroom kingdom are always in a Super state, that's just dumb and probably taxing on your body.
And BTW prove me wrong but I don't think "Mario Madness" is part of the subtitle for SMUSA. At least I never seen it in any title lists. I think it's just the usual nonsense that box designers tend to put on the box art.

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knew that you would bring this up, I just knew it.

I didn't mention it because there's a very obvious reason for that: In the original "Super Mario Bros.", she didn't have her official artwork yet. In that game, Princess Toadstool actually was supposed to be smaller than Mario. The idea that the Princess is taller than Mario had not yet been established
So it was a trap?? Damn!
Anyway what is your base for this? King Koopa was still using the ox demon lord design from Saiyuuki but Peach doesn't look that different to me. The other games also has widely different sizes, Koopa is mega large in Mario 64 for example, so basing this on how the characters are drawn in the various games isn't very reliably I think.

Quote:
So, either small Mario is really a dwarf form with Super Mario being his regular form. This would contradict the old games, though, where they clearly label him:
Small = Mario, big = Super Mario.
Yes this is the sole reason I believe Super is a bigger than normal. It's the only thing that feels right. The only reason the other characters looks big to normal Mario is because the developers thought it was convenient to draw them like that at the time. They didn't follow strict guidelines about height and stuff back in older games.

Quote:
People who seriously try to interpret anything into these kind of color choices should maybe start reading about the NES hardware.
Yes Tepples, I think you really should study up on the NES hardware. I heard there's a really good NES development forum around here somewhere. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:18 pm 
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Pokun wrote:
And BTW prove me wrong but I don't think "Mario Madness" is part of the subtitle for SMUSA.

Pretending it is the subtitle is the easiest way I've found to express "I'm not talking about the FDS mission pack sequel that was eventually localized as The Lost Levels" to the largest number of readers. And calling it Super Mario USA would connote more specifically the later Japanese release of the game.

As for the blue Toad issue, how are palettes in that game arranged? Would it have been impossible to do something like Mega Man? I know the other characters have a sclera overlay sprite. Would it also have been impossible to do something like Contra, with white-red-skin on top and white-blue-skin on bottom?
Attachment:
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:45 am 
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Pokun wrote:
Captain Toad's Japanese name is Kinopio-taichou (Captain Kinopio) so it sounds like it's the same character as Toad? Or is Kinopio just a common name among the mushroom people? Sometimes I'm not even sure if Kinopio is supposed to be a unique person as they all look alike, and many games just have random mushroom retainers without any indication of anyone of them being Kinopio/Toad. But many other games like Mario RPG seems to confirm his unique existence, and Kinopiko/Toadette is definitely a unique character.

Species: Kinoko.
Individual: Kinopio.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toad_(Nintendo)

Pokun wrote:
And of course a drawing style can be connected with a culture and/or time period

Yes, of course, there are styles that belong to certain cultures. However, realistic style is not one of them. Because people in all times and in all cultures looked realistic. People that are 1.75 m with pointed noses exist in big cities as well as in middleage-style castles. So, in how far is Mario's comic book style better suited for the Mushroom Kingdom while New Donk City has to have realistic characters?

Pokun wrote:
Anyway what is your base for this? King Koopa was still using the ox demon lord design from Saiyuuki but Peach doesn't look that different to me.

The similarity between the two artworks might be subjective, but my point still stands: From that artwork, it was not yet established that the Princess is half a head taller than Mario, so her sprite being smaller doesn't prove anything.
Even "The Lost Levels", where she got her official artwork, still didn't depict her taller:
https://vgr2016.files.wordpress.com/201 ... 1_1280.jpg

That was only introduced in SMB2 USA and SMB3.

Pokun wrote:
Yes this is the sole reason I believe Super is a bigger than normal. It's the only thing that feels right. The only reason the other characters looks big to normal Mario is because the developers thought it was convenient to draw them like that at the time. They didn't follow strict guidelines about height and stuff back in older games.

This makes absolutely no sense, even if there are no hard guidelines. Just see how ridiculous that sounds:

"We want Super Mario to be a giant. Using the Super Mushroom makes him taller than everybody else. He towers over all human people in his super form because he has become a giant, 3.2 m tall superman.
However, we will not represent the other characters as small compared to Super Mario. We will draw them in the same size as his super form, so that regular Mario looks like a dwarf to them while Super Mario looks like a regular-sized person to them.
But in-universe, it's still supposed that Super Mario is twice as big as everybody else.
So even though the sprites don't match up (despite this being a pretty easy task to accomplish and an absolutely necessary task if we want to stress that he's a giant for his surrounding), we just draw the other characters big because it is convenient.
You just need to pretend that a 16 pixel high Mario is regular Mario, a 32 pixel high Princess is regular Princess and a 32 pixel high Mario is Super Mario that is supposed to be twice as large as the Princess."

See how stupid that sounds?

Pokun wrote:
Yes Tepples, I think you really should study up on the NES hardware. I heard there's a really good NES development forum around here somewhere. :)

I wasn't referring to Tepples, I was referring to the people from the link he posted and was surprised that he brings this up without of any indication of irony, even though he knows better.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:51 am 
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tepples wrote:
Pokun wrote:
And BTW prove me wrong but I don't think "Mario Madness" is part of the subtitle for SMUSA.

Pretending it is the subtitle is the easiest way I've found to express "I'm not talking about the FDS mission pack sequel that was eventually localized as The Lost Levels" to the largest number of readers. And calling it Super Mario USA would connote more specifically the later Japanese release of the game.

As for the blue Toad issue, how are palettes in that game arranged? Would it have been impossible to do something like Mega Man? I know the other characters have a sclera overlay sprite. Would it also have been impossible to do something like Contra, with white-red-skin on top and white-blue-skin on bottom?
So you use the title "Super Mario Bros 2: Mario Madness" in forum talk just to avoid any confusion with the FDS SMB2 game? OK I buy that, it's the same reason I use the title "Super Mario USA" to refer to the cartridge game and "Super Mario Bros 2j" for the FDS game in forum talk. Of course if there's a reason to distinguish between the NES and Famicom releases of the game in the discussion, I would just explain which version I mean.

I'd think that the Megaman way would be possible, it doesn't look like a game that's using that many sprites (it's no danmaku or anything). I mean many games could have minor improvements that there maybe wasn't time for during the development process.

Quote:
Species: Kinoko.
Individual: Kinopio.
So what do you think about Captain Toad? Is he a separate character from Toad? Until recently I thought of him as a different character, but now I'm not sure anymore.
Kinoko is just the Japanese word for mushroom so it's like when they are referred to as mushroom people in English. Kinoko-ichizoku is another word used in Japanese versions, it means the mushroom tribe/clan as in contrast to the invading kame-ichizoku the turtle tribe/clan.

Quote:
Yes, of course, there are styles that belong to certain cultures. However, realistic style is not one of them.
Well realism is also an art style and has varied in popularity in various time periods. I lost track of where you are trying to go with this by picking on my choices of words. :?

Quote:
The similarity between the two artworks might be subjective, but my point still stands: From that artwork, it was not yet established that the Princess is half a head taller than Mario, so her sprite being smaller doesn't prove anything.
Even "The Lost Levels", where she got her official artwork, still didn't depict her taller:
https://vgr2016.files.wordpress.com/201 ... 1_1280.jpg

That was only introduced in SMB2 USA and SMB3.
OK I buy that her modern artwork was defined in SMUSA. It is the game introducing her as a playable character so they had to make lots of art of her for the manual and the like after all. In other words, the style in SMB1 or SMB2j shouldn't be considered as the current canon.

Quote:
This makes absolutely no sense, even if there are no hard guidelines. Just see how ridiculous that sounds:
"...
So even though the sprites don't match up, we just draw the other characters big because it is convenient."
Video game logic, not everything is depicted in realistic proportions, especially if it would make it hard to see details in the low resolution the system provides, makes perfect sense to me. Maybe "convenient" isn't the correct word, but I hope you get my point.
OK my turn. The Super Mushroom is a power up that increases your strength. Doesn't it sound ridiculous that everyone are wandering around in a transformed state at all times? I mean in fiction, heroes usually only transform when it's time to fight the bad guys.
BTW as an aside, the big Mario in SMB was designed first as his real form, but later it was made into a power up (based on the Alice in Wonderland mushrooms). And since the enemies are fictional characters there's no reason they have to be the size of real turtles in the first place. They are members of the turtle people. Although they are based on the Shellcreepers that are roughly the same size as normal Mario.

Quote:
I wasn't referring to Tepples, I was referring to the people from the link he posted and was surprised that he brings this up without of any indication of irony, even though he knows better.
Sorry I didn't mean to sound like an ass, I just couldn't resist making a joke. :P You should know Tepples by now, there's no way to tell when he's joking or when he's being serious. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:56 am 
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Pokun wrote:
As for the blue Toad issue, how are palettes in that game arranged? Would it have been impossible to do something like Mega Man?

Since they use separate sprites even for the eyes alone, I assume it would have been possible, but they probably didn't consider it.

Pokun wrote:
So what do you think about Captain Toad? Is he a separate character from Toad?

I don't really know.

Pokun wrote:
Well realism is also an art style and has varied in popularity in various time periods. I lost track of where you are trying to go with this by picking on my choices of words. :?

It's not about choice of words. I try to argue against the basic assumption: "Cartoon style was good for Mario in the Mushroom Kingdom. But in a city, a realistic style is more fitting, so it matches the atmosphere."

No, it doesn't. Realistic style matches the atmosphere in every situation because that's what humans look like in, well, reality.

But if they already chose cartoon style, they should have kept it that way. Cartoon style in a big city is no more or less out of place than in a kingdom surrounding.

The degree in how far each style fits to the surroundings is exactly the same: If you already have big-nosed cartoon characters in the kingdom surroundings, they also fit to the city surroundings.

The idea that the cartoon style matches well with the kingdom locations while the realistic style matches more with the city environment is incorrect. In a "Super Mario" setting, even city folk should look like the Mario bunch.

Pokun wrote:
Video game logic, not everything is depicted in realistic proportions, especially if it would make it hard to see details in the low resolution the system provides, makes perfect sense to me.

But if the whole point is to depict Super Mario as a giant, an inflated version of a normal human, then depicting all the other characters in this inflated version makes no sense.

This has nothing to do with video game logic, it has to do with common sense:
If you want to depict your character as a giant, but literally every single other human character is exactly the same size, then people will never even get the idea that your character is supposed to be a giant.

Look at it:
Attachment:
Comparison.png
Comparison.png [ 6.42 KiB | Viewed 184 times ]

If that was the intention, it wouldn't be video game logic or characters being shown out of scale, it would be just plain retarded.

Pokun wrote:
OK my turn. The Super Mushroom is a power up that increases your strength. Doesn't it sound ridiculous that everyone are wandering around in a transformed state at all times? I mean in fiction, heroes usually only transform when it's time to fight the bad guys.

It's not ridiculous if these mushrooms are a common occurence in that world and if this means it protects you from any harm.
Don't you think if using a certain creme would prevent your skin from any impact for exactly one time, including car crashes, and that you don't need to re-apply the creme until it is actually needed, that people would use them by default, constantly?
Yes, superheroes only transform when they fight. But apart from being able to smash bricks, the Super Mushroom is something for protection. It doesn't make Mario faster or jump higher, it only acts as a life bar.

Pokun wrote:
BTW as an aside, the big Mario in SMB was designed first as his real form, but later it was made into a power up (based on the Alice in Wonderland mushrooms). And since the enemies are fictional characters there's no reason they have to be the size of real turtles in the first place.

My point still stands: Bowser and the Koopa Troopers are huge for people who are in small form. So, why shouldn't the Mushroom Kingdom people use Super Mushrooms all the time to even it out?

Believe me: If a plant that makes you grow twice as large without any negative consequences existed in our world, people would use it. We would be in constant Super size for everything we do, with small size being a sign that the person was injured and is now vulnerable.

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Website: https://megacatstudios.com/products/city-trouble
Trailer: https://youtu.be/IYXpP59qSxA
Gameplay: https://youtu.be/Eee0yurkIW4
German Retro Gamer article: http://i67.tinypic.com/345o108.jpg


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