It is currently Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:14 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:03 pm
Posts: 5892
Location: Canada
Pokun wrote:
Yeah I noticed that too. My low-discharge batteries that usually lasts years, are always discharging fast in the Wiimote. And changing the batteries with both the jacket and strap on is a bit troublesome.

Hahah, yeah sometimes I forget the jacket/strap even exist, 'cause I don't use them. (Maybe if I had very young kids?) That would definitely make the battery changing even more annoying.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 5:49 am
Posts: 923
Location: Sweden
Heh I even bought official colored straps and (third-party) jackets for my launch Wiimotes because early Wiimotes came with straps without fasteners and didn't have jackets. I don't go as far as attaching the straps to the nunchaku (or the Classic Controller why ever you would want to do that) though as the instructions says, because that would make changing accessories a pain. But maybe I should just put the straps back in the box, I don't think I ever dropped a Wiimote.

The jackets are very useful though, not only because of the better grip but because when holding the Wiimote like a Famicom controller it has like a cushion under the left hand which makes the shape a bit more symmetric. Before I had those jackets, holding the controller like that wasn't comfortable at all, and I'd even consider it a design flaw.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:03 pm
Posts: 5892
Location: Canada
Hmm, I wouldn't call the sideways control of the wiimote comfortable, but it doesn't bother me much either. Square and clunky, but I can hold onto it okay.

The nunchuk, though, cramps my hand, especially when I have to hold the buttons. Because it's so small/short and maybe because my hands are relatively large compared to it, I just can't get a stable grip on it very easily. This is actually a bit of a problem for the Metroid Prime trilogy, where I have to hold down buttons on it while moving. I find I have to limit my playtime with it.

Actually the nunchuk is sort of why I didn't think of Mario Galaxy when I was trying to come up with good Wii games. Well, it is mostly a good game, but I felt really hampered by the nunchuk. Aside from the discomfort, there's really no definitive "north" direction on the nunchuck either; I think everyone's hand holds it slightly different, so there's no consistent point of reference. It's not like a controller where your two hands define a stable axis. The nunchuk is terrible for when you want to try and run in a straight line!

That's why I thought Super Mario 3D World on the Wii U was great: the world was axis aligned and you could use the d-pad to actually run in specific directions very easily! I thought it was the first 3D Mario game with good precise controls. The only one where I wasn't constantly anxious about being able to move in the intended direction.


On a related note, I thought it was absurd that there was never an option to choose left or right handed in the Wii Zelda games. Like the nunchuk + wiimote is one of the only systems that was ever easily capable of this, and also Link was canonically left handed. Instead, they mirror-flipped the world Wii port of Twilight princess to make him right handed, and again in Skyward sword he is right handed only. I can't believe they did this!


I've hated pretty much every Nintendo controller since N64, but the wiimote + nunchuk was an all-time low....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:48 am 
Offline
Formerly WheelInventor

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:55 am
Posts: 1125
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
rainwarrior wrote:
The nunchuk, though, cramps my hand, especially when I have to hold the buttons. Because it's so small/short and maybe because my hands are relatively large compared to it, I just can't get a stable grip on it very easily. This is actually a bit of a problem for the Metroid Prime trilogy, where I have to hold down buttons on it while moving. I find I have to limit my playtime with it.


I could have written this exectly the same way, word for word. Nintendo controls seem overall to be size S, but the nunchuk feels like something XS. This is especially true in the MP trilogy series. It was better in RE4 wich was less intense on holding nunchuk buttons.

I feel like wrapping the nunchuk in bubblewrap before playing :roll:

_________________
http://www.frankengraphics.com - personal NES blog


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 5:49 am
Posts: 923
Location: Sweden
I guess you guys have big hands. Are you perhaps two of those that thought the original large Xbox controller is comfortable? I wouldn't say my hands are small or big but that controller just hurt my index fingers after playing for a while because of the distance to the L and R buttons is ridiculous, stretching my hands at the root of my index fingers. It must be totally unplayable for most girls or people with small hands in general.

I don't really understand why it's hard to find north on the nunchaku though, it's restricted in an octagonal-shape just like the two analogue joysticks on the Classic Controller, so all 8 general directions are easy to feel thanks to that. And north is always in the same relative direction from the thumb no matter how you angle the nunchaku. I guess this is a size problem too, which somehow made it hard to use in general for you.

Maybe console makers should test their controllers more with extreme cases, people with very big and very small hands to make sure both are comfortable.

Quote:
On a related note, I thought it was absurd that there was never an option to choose left or right handed in the Wii Zelda games. Like the nunchuk + wiimote is one of the only systems that was ever easily capable of this, and also Link was canonically left handed. Instead, they mirror-flipped the world Wii port of Twilight princess to make him right handed, and again in Skyward sword he is right handed only. I can't believe they did this!
I agree, I don't like that they removed Link's left handedness at all, and as I'm a lefty myself I know that using a sword in my left hand is much easier. However I wouldn't like to use my right hand with the analogue stick as I'm used to steer with my left, and since the motion controls are mainly in the Wiimote and Motion+, this might have been unavoidable.

Quote:
I've hated pretty much every Nintendo controller since N64, but the wiimote + nunchuk was an all-time low....
Oh I always thought Nintendo's controllers were the best (especially with a cross-shaped d-pad) and the Gamecube controller is the most ergonomic and comfortable controller I've used. I was a bit sad to see its support to be mostly gone in the Wii U. Although the Classic Controllers are also comfortable.

The 3DS however is surprisingly uncomfortable to play with. I often has to use the stand that came with Paluthena/Kid Icarus in other games as well. I imagine the Wii U tablet controller is similarly uncomfortable?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:03 pm
Posts: 5892
Location: Canada
Pokun wrote:
Are you perhaps two of those that thought the original large Xbox controller is comfortable?

From what I remember I didn't think it was a good controller, it was very heavy and boxy and the buttons were like hard bubbles. However, I didn't find it caused discomfort to use, I could hold it and use it okay. Kinda similar in that respect to the sideways wiimote control, excepting the weight: not a good shape but I could still use it and it didn't hurt my hands when playing for hours.

Pokun wrote:
I don't really understand why it's hard to find north on the nunchaku though, it's restricted in an octagonal-shape just like the two analogue joysticks on the Classic Controller, so all 8 general directions are easy to feel thanks to that. And north is always in the same relative direction from the thumb no matter how you angle the nunchaku. I guess this is a size problem too, which somehow made it hard to use in general for you.

The octagon guide helps at full tilt, but by then you're already running. The problem is more when I'm trying to make a slow precise movement. Follow a path, take the first step correctly, etc.

Because its not held in two hands the nunchuk's orientation is not kept in a stable position. Moving my thumb changes the shape of my hand, which rotates the nunchuk a little bit depending on how far I've moved my thumb. So, even if I could find "north" all the way down, it subtly rotates across the range of motion of my thumb from centre to north. Same if I rotate my wrist while playing, the position shifts. I find I have to constantly re-adjust and learn again and again where north is while playing. It's subtle, but games often require subtle input. Does that explain it a little better?

It's not as bad in games where the two buttons aren't being used. If I can grip the whole thing lower down, it's more stable. For all the crazy plastic wiimote adapters I've seen, I wish I could find one that just added a bigger handle to the nunchuk.


Hmm, another game where I was disappointed in a different way by the controllers was Punch-Out!! Wii. The game is designed around actually moving your fists, basically shaking either controller punches. While I thought it was a fun gimmick for the first minute or two, I very quickly just found it annoying to execute. This is just my own subjective taste, someone else may have really been into this. There was an option to just use the pad to control, but the whole timing of the game is based on moving your fists around, so that felt wrong too. :(

The motion wasn't right to feel like actually throwing punches, really it's designed for kinda short gestures with either hand, not a punch. Though, maybe if I was 3 feet tall it would pretty much be a punch? The length of the nunchuk cable would be a problem for range of motion anyway (but maybe not if I was 3 feet tall). The Playstation Move controllers, which were wireless and had actual position tracking not just tilt/waggle sensors, I think would have been capable of a much more realistic feeling boxing game. I never tried Sports Champions 2 but I like how this looks.


Pokun wrote:
nunchaku

I'd assume this is its official name in Japan, but I've been writing nunchuk specifically because that's the official English name.


Pokun wrote:
Oh I always thought Nintendo's controllers were the best (especially with a cross-shaped d-pad) and the Gamecube controller is the most ergonomic and comfortable controller I've used. I was a bit sad to see its support to be mostly gone in the Wii U. Although the Classic Controllers are also comfortable.

I would say their d-pads specifically were the best, though now in the current generation PS4 and XB1 finally have great d-pads and the Switch got rid of it???. The SNES controller was wonderful, and the Wii classic controller was not bad (except for being tethered to the **** wiimote).

A lot of people seemed to really like the Gamecube controller, but I do not. The layout and shape of the face buttons is totally bizarre (did not like), and the shoulder buttons are atrocious. Better than the N64 controller at least, though.

The Wii U pro controller was not bad either, but between the set of similar controllers from PS3/4 and XBox 360/1 it's the worst of that bunch to me. The right analog stick being above the buttons felt like bad layout.

Pokun wrote:
I imagine the Wii U tablet controller is similarly uncomfortable?

Yeah the tablet really sucks. The only thing it was really good at was basically "mouse" controls for the Mario Maker editor, and for when you have to go to the bathroom but want to keep playing.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 5:49 am
Posts: 923
Location: Sweden
Quote:
The octagon guide helps at full tilt, but by then you're already running. The problem is more when I'm trying to make a slow precise movement. Follow a path, take the first step correctly, etc.
I think the first step is hard for anyone on any analogue joystick. It's very hard to know precisely where you are tilting until you get feedback from the game.

Quote:
Because its not held in two hands the nunchuk's orientation is not kept in a stable position. Moving my thumb changes the shape of my hand, which rotates the nunchuk a little bit depending on how far I've moved my thumb. So, even if I could find "north" all the way down, it subtly rotates across the range of motion of my thumb from centre to north. Same if I rotate my wrist while playing, the position shifts. I find I have to constantly re-adjust and learn again and again where north is while playing. It's subtle, but games often require subtle input. Does that explain it a little better?
Yes now I understand. So it's a problem of the nunchaku being too small for you to be able to keep it secured without moving. Although the nunchaku felt a bit small at first, I have no problem holding it secured between my long finger, ring finger and pinky finger and the palm so that my index finger and thumb are free to move for the joystick and buttons.

Quote:
another game where I was disappointed in a different way by the controllers was Punch-Out!! Wii.
I didn't even bother playing Punch Out like that because I didn't think Wii Boxing worked very well. Well even Skyward Sword lets the player make nice and clean cuts with the sword even by just sloppily flicking the hand fast enough. Of course they can't require the player to know how to handle a sword. I'm doing martial arts (both with and without weapons) but Skyward Swords registers 99% of my moves correctly unlike Wii Boxing. I wonder how ARMS for Switch is. There you have two controllers with both accelerometers and gyro sensors.

Quote:
Pokun wrote:
nunchaku

I'd assume this is its official name in Japan, but I've been writing nunchuk specifically because that's the official English name.
Ah yes I suppose so. Well "nunchaku" (ヌンチャク) is a Japanese (or more precisely Okinawan) word and I'm doing Okinawan karate and kobudou (which includes nunchaku) so I prefer that term. I guess "nunchuk" is an alternate spelling in English (just note that the "u" in "nun" isn't pronounced like the "u" in "chuk").

Quote:
I would say their d-pads specifically were the best, though now in the current generation PS4 and XB1 finally have great d-pads and the Switch got rid of it???
Haha yeah, I understand that Nintendo needed to make the d-pad so that opposite directions are pressable so it can be used as face buttons when turned on the side, but it's sad that it's gone. And then the Pro Controller still have it, but I heard it's not as good as it used to be for some reason.
I didn't know the PS4 has a cross d-pad though?

Quote:
A lot of people seemed to really like the Gamecube controller, but I do not. The layout and shape of the face buttons is totally bizarre (did not like), and the shoulder buttons are atrocious. Better than the N64 controller at least, though.
I agree about the button layout. It's ok for Gamecube games because they are designed for it but using it for other things (like GBA Player) isn't ideal, and it's not very good for N64 VC games that needs to use the C-buttons. I wish it had 6 face buttons layed out like on the N64 controller and it would be the ultimate controller.


Last edited by Pokun on Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 7:17 pm
Posts: 1866
Location: DIGDUG
rainwarrior wrote:
Pokun wrote:
I imagine the Wii U tablet controller is similarly uncomfortable?

Yeah the tablet really sucks. The only thing it was really good at was basically "mouse" controls for the Mario Maker editor, and for when you have to go to the bathroom but want to keep playing.


The Wii U tablet is interesting...you can play a game without a TV, and you can play...about 40-50 feet away from the console with no problems.

_________________
nesdoug.com -- blog/tutorial on programming for the NES


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:03 pm
Posts: 5892
Location: Canada
Pokun wrote:
I didn't know the PS4 has a cross d-pad though?

It's not a flat cross, but it's as good as one, or maybe even better?
Image
The difference between PS4 and previous PS controllers is that they've curved the edges of the centre so that it now feels smooth rather than having 4 points digging into your thumb (like on PS3). The way it is now the thumb sits very comfortably in that groove. I think it's my new favourite d-pad actually. (Too bad about that stupid touch pad in the middle though, and horrible new "option" button.)

The XB1 d-pad is also slightly curved inward too, but it's a much more subtle effect (comparison).

dougeff wrote:
The Wii U tablet is interesting...you can play a game without a TV, and you can play...about 40-50 feet away from the console with no problems.

Many games yes you can play on the pad alone, though there are quite a lot that use the pad screen for something special rather than just being a mirror of the TV.

In some really awful cases you're forced to look/play primarily on the pad and the TV becomes useless, which is a problem because the pad has lower resolution and also lag that's somewhat proportional to your distance from the TV.

Kirby and the Rainbow Curse, for example, you have to draw with the stylus to do everything in the game. It has very nice art but it looks crummy on the pad view, but because you have to do all your action there anyway you can't look at the TV. (Not a very good game anyway, IMO.)

Starfox Zero has an alternate view on the pad, and in many situations you have to look at that rather than the TV.

Splatoon might seem like a game that you could play on a TV alone, but they intentionally made it so you couldn't, putting a map screen on the pad. For Splatoon 2, since it's on the switch, they let you switch to the map view with X instead-- something the original game could have EASILY done, but I think they wanted the pad to be more "essential", so they deliberately blocked the possibility of playing on the pad here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:31 pm
Posts: 818
From what I've heard, which may not be representative, the number one complaint about Splatoon 2 as a sequel has been the comparatively cumbersome map. People had gotten used to being able to just glance at the map, and tap it to jump to a teammate, but without a second screen you've got to do it the long way.

Pokun wrote:
I don't think I ever dropped a Wiimote.

It's not about dropping it. Don't you remember the stories of people destroying expensive HDTVs because they got too excited playing Wii Bowling? They had to send out free replacement straps because the ones they launched the console with were too weak.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 5:49 am
Posts: 923
Location: Sweden
That's what I meant. People kept dropping it into the TV or out the window when playing Wii Sports and the like. I never dropped it but I bought the newer stronger straps anyway (my Wii was imported USA region so I couldn't get the free ones) and put the old straps in the box for my collection. I think I'll just remove the strap on one Wiimote and use it for games that doesn't need it.

rainwarrior wrote:
Pokun wrote:
I didn't know the PS4 has a cross d-pad though?

It's not a flat cross, but it's as good as one, or maybe even better?
[image]
The difference between PS4 and previous PS controllers is that they've curved the edges of the centre so that it now feels smooth rather than having 4 points digging into your thumb (like on PS3). The way it is now the thumb sits very comfortably in that groove. I think it's my new favourite d-pad actually. (Too bad about that stupid touch pad in the middle though, and horrible new "option" button.)

The XB1 d-pad is also slightly curved inward too, but it's a much more subtle effect (comparison).
I see, I looked it up and found an article about. It turns out Sony did some research how to improve the d-pad. Sounds good to me, the old DualShocks was good for a non-Nintendo or non-Hori d-pad, but still they did hurt my fingers in action games. RPG and Adventure games was no problem though.
The new Xbox d-pad is, although flimsy, said to be miles better than the previous ones. That honestly doesn't say much though, previous Xbox controllers reminded me about cheap computer gamepads with rock hard buttons and absolutely horrible d-pads.

Hori made a Pro Controller that has a removable cross d-pad and individual face buttons under it (for games that requires opposite directions to be pressed at once?), but they sacrificed motion controls, HD rumble and the NFC reader/writer. It got mixed reviews though, and I'm not sure if removing motion controls and HD rumble is a good idea as there could be games that relies on it. But for NFC, I think it's probably enough with the NFC that comes in the bundled right Joycon. I wonder why Nintendo had to include an extra one in their original Pro Controller, almost sounds like waste of money.

Quote:
dougeff wrote:
The Wii U tablet is interesting...you can play a game without a TV, and you can play...about 40-50 feet away from the console with no problems.

Many games yes you can play on the pad alone, though there are quite a lot that use the pad screen for something special rather than just being a mirror of the TV.

In some really awful cases you're forced to look/play primarily on the pad and the TV becomes useless, which is a problem because the pad has lower resolution and also lag that's somewhat proportional to your distance from the TV.

Kirby and the Rainbow Curse, for example, you have to draw with the stylus to do everything in the game. It has very nice art but it looks crummy on the pad view, but because you have to do all your action there anyway you can't look at the TV. (Not a very good game anyway, IMO.)

Starfox Zero has an alternate view on the pad, and in many situations you have to look at that rather than the TV.

Splatoon might seem like a game that you could play on a TV alone, but they intentionally made it so you couldn't, putting a map screen on the pad. For Splatoon 2, since it's on the switch, they let you switch to the map view with X instead-- something the original game could have EASILY done, but I think they wanted the pad to be more "essential", so they deliberately blocked the possibility of playing on the pad here.
I remember playing games on the GBA and GameCube connectivity cable. Looking at the GBA and the TV at the same time isn't possible and games normally didn't require that.
But the point of a HUD is so you don't have to look down on a display but look at the same screen (therefore Heads Up Display), so having to look down on another screen for certain information feels like a step backwards from a HUD. It works alright on double Game & Watch games, DS and 3DS because the two screens are so close to each other. Maybe the Wii U wasn't such a good idea after all. The Switch seems to disable the built-in screen in TV Mode so it isn't possible for games to play like on the Wii U.

I like drawing though, so I really liked that you can draw on the touch screen in certain games and apps (Phantom Hourglass is one of the best examples, allowing you to take notes, mark things on maps and even draw maps from scratch of uncharted islands). Being able to draw is the main advantage of any touch screen IMHO. Therefore I think the Wii U had potential for interesting games and apps.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:16 am
Posts: 601
Pokun wrote:
Being able to draw is the main advantage of any touch screen IMHO. Therefore I think the Wii U had potential for interesting games and apps.

*has

You can make homebrew for it ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:07 am 
Offline
Formerly WheelInventor

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:55 am
Posts: 1125
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
plus, there might be some end of cycle-releases still?

_________________
http://www.frankengraphics.com - personal NES blog


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:03 pm
Posts: 5892
Location: Canada
FrankenGraphics wrote:
plus, there might be some end of cycle-releases still?

No, it's basically dead: https://www.nintendo.com/games/coming-soon#wiiu

I think Breath of the Wild was its last real release.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 5:49 am
Posts: 923
Location: Sweden
calima wrote:
Pokun wrote:
Being able to draw is the main advantage of any touch screen IMHO. Therefore I think the Wii U had potential for interesting games and apps.

*has

You can make homebrew for it ;)
You are damn right about that! Now when it's dying, there shouldn't be as much concern for piracy or Nintendo updates anymore, so it's about time for it to be jail broken for real. Has the non-Wii part of the Wii U even been hacked yet? Some quick googling tells me it probably has.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group